Would you ban smacking? Take our two-question-takes-less-than-10-seconds poll (and be entered into this week's comp)

Er, no I haven't worked in A&E.... I'm well aware of how people are treated there, have great respect for the people who do it, and it is clear the one of the requirements to manage to do that job is greater than average self-control. I am one of the majority of people that probably couldn't do that job. We ask (and get) amazingly high standards from medics and carers in such situations. They are standards which it would be unrealistic to expect from EVERBODY who wants to be a parent. That is my point.

You do seem to have an oversimplistic view of the causal relationship between children smacking and their parents smacking. Most of us know many many kids who hit other kids but were not hit themselves, or people who were hit but would never hit a soul. Of course being hit makes you more likely to hit in turn, but to say as you have that 'x causes y' is rather naive - there are many other factors.

I am anti-smacking because I don't believe it is an effective diciplinary tool. Before I had children I always said that that I would never smack because there are other methods of disciplining a child. However I have smacked ds on three occasions. I do not regret smacking him on the first two occasions but I do regret the third occasion and will explain why.

First time, ds about 2.6 generally being a bit of pain in the supermarket because I had refused him a kinder egg. We get to the till and ds somehow summoned super toddler strength and lobbed a bottle of wine across the store narrowingly missing an old lady. I was shocked and instinctively chastised him and smacked him on the bottom.

Second time, ds a couple of months later we are returning from a shopping trip, I am laden down with shopping bags and finding it hard to control ds. We get to main road and I ask ds to grab hold of my arm to cross the road, he refuses and runs across the road. I drop my shopping bags, pull him back and smack him on the bottom.

Third time, I am on the telephone to the bank trying to sort out our finances (urgent because we can't meet that months mortgage payment) 2 days before I had received news that my sister had breast cancer and I am feeling like someone has kicked the stuffing out of me. Ds is demanding my attention and I can hardly hear the person I am talking to on the other end of the telephone. Next thing I know is I am feel a thud to the head and realise that ds has hit me over the head with a china mug. I end the phone call and smack him on the bottom.

I have never smacked ds since because he is now 4 and I feel that he is to old to be chastised in this way. The naughty step and stopping pocket money are very effective now. To be honest I hardly even need to resort to these measures as he is a delightful child.

Recently ds lashed out at me because he was frustrated over something, I told him off and said "we don't have hitting in this house" to which he replied "well you smacked me when I hit you over the head with that cup when I was 2!" I think that this had stuck in his head because I burst into tears at the time. It made me realise that on that occasion I had smacked him because I was frustrated and that was wrong. I apologised to him for smacking him 18 months earlier and I reitrated that smacking/hitting is against the rules for all of us.

Now if smacking became illegal would I be fined for those occasions, forced to go on parenting classes? I believe that either of those possibilities would be unnecessary and unacceptable. What about parents who say awful things to their children and constantly undermine them? Or fail to provide their children with a healthy diet or a stimulating environment? I think the government are barking up the wrong tree.

Also when you smack a child on the bottom, you are not actually hurting them are you? If you were making the child feel physical pain then obviously that would be wrong. When I smacked ds I applied no more pressure then when I playfully shoo him up the stairs to bed.

The NSPCC and the government could be doing so much to protect children and yet they choose to pursue this which frankly is a waste of time. Feckless/neglectful parents won't care whether smacking is illegal will they?

Sorry for the essay!

OK, we all get stressed and lose our temper at times, but can't you see the logic of the statement that if you hit your child, they will in turn hit other people? Children learn by example. You hear your children repeating your words and see them repeating your actions. Does it not bother people that their children may hit other children (and adults) if that is what they've been taught to do?

Kathy - clearly you have never worked in A&E, where you get spat on, vomited on, bled on, verbally abused, shouted at, complained about and generally treated like a piece of rubbish much of the time. The temptation to slap an aggressive abusive frequent-attending urine-sodden drunk, waving a bottle around and telling you you're a frigid bitch because you won't snog him, is far greater than the temptation to smack a disobedient toddler, believe me! Both situations require calm patience and restraint. Neither require physical violence.

Oh god felt so guilty there doing the questions!

No I wouldn't ban smacking and yes I have smacked my child but not particularly smacked IYKWIM more of a tap on the hand/bum of my 2YO DS if he is doing something really bad that could harm him. Although I don't do it regularly just if he's having a day of not listening to me when I explain to him not to do something 40
times in 5 minutes.

But on the other hand I definately don't agree with people using alot of force on their children but abusive parents tend to stick to doing it in private so what exactly can be done about it? Nothing so there isn't any point in banning it.

Nightingale - I have come to that conclusion, too!!!

I always said I would never smack a child before I had children.

I do smack DD1 occasionally because her behaviour can be appalling and it is the only thing I have found which stops the behaviour right now. I worry that it will teach her to hit is OK, but as far as I know she has never hit another child. It's probably my bad parenting that causes her behaviour, but then why does DD2 behave (never had to smack her)? I've come to the conclusion that parents who never smack probably have very easy children.

As for people who say 'it's illegal to hit an adult so it should be illegal to hit a child', I say that you can't have equal rights without equal repsonsibilities. Are we going to prosecute a toddler for assault? Obviously not. As parents we are told constantly that our children are out of control and badly behaved, then we are told we can't punish them. If I'd found a punishment that works better on DD1, believe me I'd be using it.

"It's is illegal for men to hit their wives, for staff to hit elderly people in nursing homes, for carers to hit handicapped people, for a stranger to hit you in a pub, for a Dr or nurse to hit a weak patient. I don't think anyone would question those laws."
Of course it is.
If you're a doctor or nurse or carer, there's generally no excuse for you ever snapping or losing it. If you can't keep your patience at all times and guarantee to be 100% non-violent during working hours you should not be in one of those jobs.
Being a parent is somewhat different. You are on duty all the time, not just 8 or 12 hours during your shift. You can't change your child to an easier one if it transpires you have ended up with a child you can't manage. You have no-one to call for back-up if the child becomes violent. If you could only be a parent if you were 100% certain you would remain patient and fully in control at all times, the world population would be pretty small.
There are reasons for cutting a little more slack to parents who lose it under those circs than to carers or doctors.

LittleMy and Puzzlerocks - thank you for two very sane posts!

Twinkle - I hope you can see that your sweeping generalisations (everyone who's ever smacked their child is a vicious bully who has failed to bond with said child) are as ludicrous in their own way as the idea that regular smacks will teach children to behave.

I personally belive that shouting at children is abusive and offensive - but that is just my opinion, and is helped by the fact that I only lose my temper about once every 10 years!

Parents have to use whatever they feel it takes to turn their children into reasonable adults. Some children are easy and never really need any more than gentle correction. Others are hideously difficult (I know - I have them at both ends of the spectrum). Parents themselves are not all the same: some have short fuses; others don't.

I do dislike the idea that you could have a bolshy 7-y-o reporting his/her parents to a teacher for a light smack if/when it becomes illegal!

disneystar - why do you think that anything more than a smack on the hand wouldn;t be covered under the current "rteasonable punishement" guideline?

All that needs to be done is to issue a guideline to social services, schools, police courts etc as to what constitutes "reasonable punishment" or at least some examples when other factors are present.

There are situations when it is permissable to hit another adult.

and if I'm honest - on the rare occasion when I have smacked DS (and been deeply ashamed and more than a little upset about it) it has made me a better parent ultimately. It made me much more understanding of my fallability and develop strategies to cope better next time and given me a short sharp shock.

He doesn't remember being smacked but I remember it and have learnt from it.

I might not be as perfect a parent as you twinkle but please don't start talking about attachement problems when I suspect that you have little understanding of the real issues involved which have no bearing on this debate. To say that anyone who has ever smacked their child must have attachment issues really undermines your attempt at a reasonable argument.

apologies didnt preview should of said

no one has ever come to me with issues of a slapped hand ever

this ban is trying to protect the millions that are abused not the loving mothers thats give a light tap
child beatings are very very real this ban is trying to protect them
do you know how hard or for how long the child has to suffer before the police can act or are the bruises so bad to be identified as beatings or did he fall down the stairs
its not about you guys its time to get it stopped

twinklelittlestar i totally agree with you no one needs to smack there children ever
i have 7 children oldest 22 youngest 3 months so ive done the tennager years the terrible 2,s and so on
i wouldnt condemn thise parents mothers now though for there light taps there is a world of difference in how they those grown up children feel now to those who were abused

my own mother used to say to me when exasperated do you want me to smack you or a good hiding if you dont stop it a samck was a slap round the face and a good hiding was brutally beaten on head back of leags everywhere with the hard bit on a hairbrush
needles to say i hate my mother i have no relationship whatsoever with her and will not ever let her near my children
i recieved this severe beating for telling her on the advise of my teacher that my father was sexually abusing me i was 5 years old
they eventually took me into care at 11 years old but the damage was done
i dont mean to give you guys a life history just merely to point out i think we all have our own reasons for either being so anti smacking or all for a light tap
smacking doesnt show patience or control but just because you have tapped the hand lightly doesn not make you a monster or child abuser we are all human and have emotions
if my mother had just smacked my hand i would be a different person today instead i campaign for childrens rights and work for the NSPCC and am a rape counsellor
and i cant tell you no one has ever come to me with a serious emotion of please help me my parents have smacked my hand
if only that were it !!!!

It's is illegal for men to hit their wives, for staff to hit elderly people in nursing homes, for carers to hit handicapped people, for a stranger to hit you in a pub, for a Dr or nurse to hit a weak patient. I don't think anyone would question those laws.

Why then is it OK for us to smack our children?

Twinklestar's post makes perfect sense to me. If you hit a child (however hard or for whatever reason), you are teaching them that hitting is an appropriate way to resolve an issue. They will then do it to other children, or you, or teachers. And you will only have yourself to blame.

"What are all you slap happy mothers out there going to do if you can't smack your children anymore? Get a tazer?"

I always like a well considered thoughtful post which has obviously read the other posts and absorbed them

I don;t want the right to tazer my child thank you.

I beleive that the exisitng laws are adequate and see no convincing argumetn of who is going to be caught in any new ban who deserves to be criminalised.

To those who said that the police wouldn't strictly enforce the law and therefore any parent "cracking" and giving their child a smack won't be prosecuted (nice to be so sure of that when I see cases of people being prosecuted for throwing gum in the street). Well the existing "reasonable punishment" gives that flexibility now - some people might not like the fact that reasonable punishment is not very clear but it does in fact give Police/DPP and courts the opportunity to prosecute those who deserve it.

great post LittleMyDancing

Twinklestar - you seem to think that people against this ban are against it because they want 'the right to hit/smack their children', and you paint them to be monsters who are just waiting for the opportunity to beat up their kids, and would probably beat them senseless if the law allowed it.

Far from it. I have chosen to try not to smack my child, but I still do not support this ban.

I am against this law because I believe it is not a matter for legislation to get involved in, and that within certain boundaries (i.e. no physical or emotional harm) people should be free and supported to parent as they choose. Parents come in all shapes and sizes, because we are all people, just as children are all different, and there is not only one way to be a parent.

Some parents shout more than others, some parents use light smacking while others put children on the naughty step. To some children, the rejection and isolation of being put in its room is more upsetting than a smack. To others, being put in their room has no effect, but a smack on the hand does. To some people, shouting at a child is not acceptable - to others, smacking is not acceptable, but shouting is. The point is that as long as children are loved, supported and cared for consistently both emotionally and physically, the differences in parenting styles do not cause any harm.

We already have laws that expressly forbid physical and emotional harm, which is right and proper in a civilised society. We do not need laws that tell us what kind of parents we should be.

well sanity prevailed.

Now perhaps mumsnet would like to run another pole that says when did you last slap your child or how often do you slap your child?

It's nonsense to suggest that you are a poor parent if you have ever hit your child. If you resort to it regularly or beat them you have a problem.

I don't hit my children now because they are of an age to understand reason. I did so when they were small and I feel no guilt about it at all. They have no memory that they were ever smacked.

Twinklelittlestar do you have any form of punishment when your children misbehave? What is it? Or shall we be seeing you on one of the parenting programmes wondering why your children are such horrors that every other child avoids them.

Thank you.

Excellent post, PuzzleRocks.

Twinklelittlestar. In principle what you are saying is of course right but it is a little unfair to make such sweeping generalisations. I have never smacked my daughter, she is only 17 months after all, but I stand by my original comment (the first one of the thread I think). I can count on one hand the number of occassions when my mother reprimanded me in this way. It was a "tap" and nothing more sinister, never left a mark and certainly didn't hurt. It was more to jolt me, if you will, when I was having a tantrum and shouting at her. I certainly never felt humiliated and I totally resent the suggestion that my fantastic mother who did a wonderful job of raising five children single handedly is somehow no better than the sort of mother who routinely slaps, bullies and shouts at her children.
If you read the thread, most people who admit to have chastised their children feel dreadful about it so this "green light" nonsense is pretty offensive. Most parents are not child abusers, reserve your indignation for those who deserve it.

Nah, I'm planning to use emotional abuse myself - so much more mature.

if this law doesn't get passed is this going to give the 'tappers' & 'slappers' the green light to smack/tap a little harder & not feel quite so guilty about it?

Hi I am really hoping that this law gets passed tomorrow. I think this should have been done a long time ago. I imagine if it doesn't all those on this thread who would like to right to hit their children will be rejoicing!

It really is sickening that so many people are coming on here to state that they want to maintain the right to hit/smack their children. It is interesting to read that so many of you think that a ban is being introduced to stop 'other' people abusing their children...rather than being able to reflect on their own behaviour & to see it is also to stop people like themselves using violence as a method against powerless members of our society... even if it is 'to teach/protect from danger etc.

LOL... i smack my dd so that she won't hit/poke the baby... can't you see how ridiculous this is. What lesson are you teaching here? That while the parent is around they wont poke/hit the baby as they are frightened that they might get a smack but when the parent isn't around it's ok as they have learnt that physical chastisements are acceptable.They would feel it was ok to smack/poke etc as they are being taught implicitly through the parents action that this kind of behaviour is ok as the parent is doing it to them. The parent is giving a very confusing message as they are saying on one level 'don't use aggression/physical intervention' against others but on the other they are showing that they do precisely this.

The lesson it is teaching is that it is ok to physically chastise those younger/more vulnerable & less powerful than themselves. They are learning how to get their own way through bullying tactics. (i.e. i want my child not to put fingers into a socket so i will hit them to teach them not to do it = if i hit someone weaker/less powerful than myself they will do what i want). Children learn through imitation/copying much more powerfully than they do by what they are told.

I think people who wish/desire to hit children and who justify their wishes/actions by saying that they were hit as children & 'it never did me any harm' is actually very sad as it is an indication that they were in fact damaged as individuals as they now cannot see any harm in hurting others (specifically children who are the least powerful members of our society).

So in a way they have learnt to dissociate from the pain & humiliation they experienced as children when they were hit. Rather now they have to believe that it didn't harm them in order to keep the view that they maintain of their own fragile selves & their parents (& parenting skills from crumbling).

Additionally I think that people/parents that have to resort to hitting their children for any reason whether it be in the name of safety, discipline or whatever are actually demonstrating the fact that they are inadequate as parents & as mature members of our society. It reveals them to be lacking in
maturity if they do not have any more effective parenting skills other than having to resort to smacking.

Perhaps most important parents who use any kind of violence/aggression (a tap etc) toward their children & justify it in the name of 'good parenting' are also revealing that they do not have a very close attachment to their children & that their children do not have a very close/healthy attachment to them as if they did they would not need/want to resort to these types of parenting strategies in the first place.

I will be so pleased if this law is passed as it will be a step forward to a more humane society:

'The best test of a civilsed society is the way in which it treats it's most vulnerable & weakest members' Mahatma Gandhi.

What are all you slap happy mothers out there going to do if you can't smack your children anymore? Get a tazer?

Was going to do poll... but then felt deeply uncomfortable. Yes, I have smacked DD1 once or twice on the back of the hand in circumstances where her behaviour has been dangerous and I have run out of options (eg. her running off in a carpark etc.) Am not proud of it, and certainly wouldn't want to win a skiing holiday for admitting to it...

I just hope people are honest in the poll, even if they have smacked once or twice, as I have - othetrwise it will be worthles