Would you ban smacking? Take our two-question-takes-less-than-10-seconds poll (and be entered into this week's comp)

oh and in case anyone is wondering, I have a great relationship with my parents, including my father, and couldn't have wished for more loving, supportive and caring parents.

It's interesting that lots of people have talked about 'inflicting physical pain' on children. I was smacked occasionally as a child, and I can't remember it EVER hurting.

The most frequent occasions I can remember are when my father would get cross with us bickering at the table (happened quite often ) and would take us into the hall to spank us.

I have no recollection of any pain. I do remember thinking 'oh, I've really done it this time' and being ashamed of my behaviour.

But physical pain? Nope. If the pain stays with you long after the event, then it's been done too hard, imo. There's a big difference between the sort of smack that gets your attention, sharpish, and the sort that actually hurts.

Podrick, well written, and my thoughts entirely..

Dottoressa - "I'm assuming her smacking was not done occasionally and within a context that made you feel loved and respected..."

how on earth could smacking ever be done in this context? Sorry but that is beyond my comprehension.

..and "loving discipline" - yes but "loving physical discipline" - warped.

Inflicting physical pain on your child is a) unecessary b) unconstructive and c) lacking in self-control by the parent - I personally find it abhorrent, as do most people, and that is why few people dare smack their children in public. Shame they carry on behind closed doors. I can understand lapses in parental self control but that doesn't make it right. Smacking is physical abuse and is completely lacking in respect for another individual. It makes me cringe. You do not need to smack your child to have a well behaved and well adjusted child and the fact that you know some latin and still decide to smack your child is no mitigation.

Has anyone been watching the world's strictest parents? My point, in response to bansleybelle's son's cute comment, is that sometimes children do not recognise that discipline can be loving.

The teenagers in the above programme all start the week ranting and raging at the parents, how they don't let their kids have a life, are 'power mad', want to control everything etc etc. And by the end of the week the teenagers inevitably come to see that what they thought was abuse (i.e. lack of "freedom", no dating, forcing to do housework, etc) is actually a very loving and effective form of parenting. And I'd bet my bottom dollar (if they are as 'fundamentalist Christians' as the families appear to be in the programme) that their kids got a smack when they were defiant, disobedient toddlers.

Kathy... I think it's quite likely that this guy is pro-smacking as a legitimate form of discipline, but what he is saying in his booklet is that it is possible that anti-smackers also have an agenda, and make their case without considering the evidence.

He calls for an unbiased examination of the stats, facts and figures (i.e. I'm guessing not by him, and not by someone from an anti-smacking campaign), but I doubt very much whether it is possible to be unbiased on this subject. His main point is that we shouldn't just assume that everything is now peachy in Sweden because of the ban on smacking, and seek to emulate the law in this country without a full examination of all the possible consequences.

Don't children say the darndest things.....

Podrick - quid hoc, ergo propter hoc?

Might it not be that she would have damaged your relationship with her anyway? I'm assuming her smacking was not done occasionally and within a context that made you feel loved and respected...

For what it's worth... i was in the park with ds after school today.

A little boy pushed his baby sister off the slide and his mum shouted at him and smacked his bottom.

Ds watched, turned around and said to me "why is that little boys mummy hitting him? Does she not love him?"

Out of the mouths of an innocent child, one that has never been smacked.

My mother smacked me.
She didn't beat me.
It has damaged our relationship.

by twinklelittlestar.....
"I think people who wish/desire to hit children and who justify their wishes/actions by saying that they were hit as children & 'it never did me any harm' is actually very sad as it is an indication that they were in fact damaged as individuals as they now cannot see any harm in hurting others (specifically children who are the least powerful members of our society)."

wtf????? seriously are you for real?

that is the most ridiculous statement i have read on mn in ages.

I was smacked, and have smacked my children, however i do not wake up in the morning and think, what shall i do today???..... i know i will hit my kids....

people who think along those lines, have severe problems, and take out their insecurities as a adult out on weaker, smaller individuals ie, children. this is disgusting, but sadly, because it is done on the whole behind closed doors, there is normally little that can be done.

however the posters on here who have admitted to smacking/tapping/hitting or whatever you would like to call it, have done so out of love for that child, and too stop greater hurt or damage from happening to that child.
in that instance the parent is taking responsibility for their actions, and is not acting out of malice.

to label someone who has smacked or has been smacked as damaged, is ludicrous, in some cases when smacking is to gain some sort of sick pleasure from seeing their 'victim' in pain, then yes i can see your point, but to suggest that posters on here are disturbed is quite frankly very very wrong.

I would want to know more about the guy who did that research though.
Given the strong pro-physical punishment attitudes among various elements of Christian fundamentalist America, it's not impossible someone might be determined to produce a piece of research to show a ban on smacking makes it increase.

assault, sorry . Would have to be the word in bold!

yes, that's a massive increase, isn't it? it is rather worrying, whichever way you look at it.

Unless Sweden is a very worrying country, the fact that there was a 489% increase in "child physical abuse cases classified as criminal assult" goes against what many people on here seem to be assuming: that passing a ban on smacking would not affect 'ordinary, decent parents' who use a smack as a form of discipline with their child. These people would be prosecuted.

I agree artichokes, but I think by the sounds of it they have some more important aspects of the Children's Act to debate which overran. there's always going to have be prioritisation in parliament or they'd never go home, and it wasn't a bill with a lot of support (28 MPs, I think?), so I can see why it got bumped.

Although i am glad there is no outright bad I would not say "sanity has prevailed".

Sanity would have been to allow our elected representatives to debate the issue and come to an informed conclusion.

It does not say much for parliamentary democracy when the Government can timetable business so that a topic which many real people are interested in, and would be effected by, is not even debated after an amendment has been tabled.

Very good. Sanity has prevailed.

I don't do physical violence, let alone against my little girl
because in my experience there is always a much more effective
alternative (or ten) to brute force.

Brains over brawn, every time.

However, it would have been ludicrous and irresponsible to criminalise many ordinary parents
and divert precious police/social services resources away from protecting children
who are subject to real, sustained abuse and neglect.
Glad the government and the opposition didn't allow that to happen.

So MNHQ, what's the result of the poll?

This is such an important issue that there wasn't even time to debate this issue in the commons and has once again failed...

Any half-decent research would take that into account, and given that it says assaults on under 7s remained stable it does seem to have done so.
So if this research is reliable (and who knows....) it would mean that kids who aren't smacked grow up to smack their own older, but not younger, kids. How bizarre. Why on earth would that be?

I would have expected there to be a significant rise in figures once the ban came into force. Surely the fact that it is illegal means that more cases that would previously had been ignored are now being reported.

The fact that there is a rise does not necessarily mean that it is actually happening more, just that it is being legally recognised.

How do we know a smacking ban would work? There is evidence to suggest that the ban in Sweden has not been a success:

Report Here.

A summary here:

"There has been a major increase in the rate of child abuse in Sweden since all forms of physical correction were banned in 1979, according to a paper published today by family advocacy group, Families First.

The author, Dr Robert Larzelere, of the University of Nebraska Medical Center highlights data which shows a 489% increase in physical child abuse cases classified as criminal assaults in Sweden between 1981 and 1994. Dr Larzelere also notes that while the number of assaults on children under the age of 7 remained low and relatively stable, "perpetration of criminal assaults against 7-14 year-olds is increasing most rapidly among those who were brought up after the law against smacking was passed."

The publication of these findings will come as a blow to anti-smacking campaigners in Britain who frequently hail Sweden's ban on smacking as an unqualified success. Last year, for example, Save the Children published a paper by Canadian researcher Joan Durrant, which presented the Swedish legislation in a glowing light and recommended it as a model to other nations throughout the world.

However, Dr Larzelere believes that a careful review of Durrant's findings reveals that her conclusions reflect her "unconditional commitment to an anti-smacking perspective more than an objective appraisal of the data available from her sources." He concludes that there is a need for "timely, rigorous and unbiased evaluations" of the impact of the 1979 anti-smacking law. Contrary to the claims of the various 'children's rights' groups, the data does not provide any basis for viewing Sweden's legislation as worthy of emulation. In fact, the evidence available so far is pointing in the opposite direction."

From HERE

Thanks Dottoressa

LittleMy - I like your posts.

Forever - I would probably have smacked my DS in the first two instances, too. I have smacked my DS in a situation similar to your third one (though without the breast cancer as a mitigating factor) and, like you, regretted it very much.

I think yours are the kinds of situation in which the vast majority of caring, loving, non-abusive parents will find themselves at some point!

Rachel, I can see the logic, of course I can. But I'm not sure it is actually as simple and as straightforward a relationship as that.

Children learn not just about behaviour from us but also about when behaviour is appropriate and when it is not. They learn that taking all your clothes off in your own home is appropriate, whereas taking them all off in the centre of town is not.

In the same way, we can teach them that a smack on the hand when they've been naughty from Mummy or Daddy is appropriate behaviour, whereas them hitting their friend for taking their toy away is not. Children learn lots of these lessons every day - grown ups are in a different role than their peers, and they learn that grown ups are allowed to punish (naughty step, smacking, teacher telling them off, whatever) whereas children are not. Would you allow your child to send you to your room if you'd shouted at them?

There's lots of anecdotal evidence on this thread of people who have been smacked as children who have grown up to be happy, well adjusted human beings with no violent tendencies. I haven't yet seen a single shred of evidence that smacking in the context of a loving, supportive parent-child relationship produces violent children/adults.

If anything, levels of violence in our society and particularly our young people are increasing, while our society frowns more and more on corporal punishment. An interesting contradiction, wouldn't you say?