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Censorship - Why are the Steiner threads being deleted and everyone being banned?

108 replies

barking · 07/07/2008 20:09

Can someone please explain to me what is going on?

I have asked MNHQ the following questions but have had no response

I had read on another thread that the reason was due to posters not contributing to other threads - can someone explain as I see plenty of examples of parents using only one topic and there isn't an issue with removing them.

Why was there no warnings given?

There have been other posters banned before for saying much worse and later reinstated

If someone is threatening mumsnet, can you please tell us what exactly for?

Is there such a thing as liability insurance we can agree to take out?

OP posts:
FluffyMummy123 · 08/07/2008 08:59

Message withdrawn

SheherazadetheGoat · 08/07/2008 08:58

can we still discuss waldorf and statler institutions, i think it is important to air my opinions on raising children with dusty grumpy old men and their values.

FluffyMummy123 · 08/07/2008 08:57

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theinsider · 08/07/2008 08:56

"most Mumsnetters are not engaged in it, we think this is a fight to take elsewhere."

Agreed.

lulumama · 08/07/2008 08:54

bloody hell, justine, that is serious i think you have made absolutely the right decision, not that you need my validation but it is clearly not a knee jerk reaction to a tricky debate. hope there are no further legal ramifications

FluffyMummy123 · 08/07/2008 08:54

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JustineMumsnet · 08/07/2008 08:52

Hello folks,
So here's the situation. As the law stands Mumsnet is viewed as the publisher of what you write. Right now there is nothing we can do to transfer the liability even if you would like to carry that liability as individuals. This is something we've written on and are campaigning against - (The Tories seem quite interested in doing something about it which is good.)

For a while now there has been a vociferous debate between 2 groups - pro-and anti-steiner - on Mumsnet, which as many have pointed out has often been a circular one. Consequently we took a decision after trawling through the reported posts in our inbox on an almost daily basis to ban those whose only purpose on Mumsnet seemed to be to conduct a pro-or-anti steiner crusade i.e. they didn't contribute to any other threads and they regularly posted with fairly dogmatic/extreme views on the issue.
We still find our inbox filled with reported posts and have received a fair few threats of legal action too. Here's the sort of mail we are getting:

"If I see her posting promotion of libel at Mumsnet once more, I won't
tell you about it, but ask Percy Bratt of Bratt and Feinsilber in Sweden
to contact you in cooperation with the legal representatives of The
Steiner Waldorf Schools Fellowship in the UK and Ireland
(www.steinerwaldorf.org/index.html), about your negligent
way of allowing libel to be published at Mumsnet and the one who is the
most fervent publisher of it to continue to publish at Mumsnet."

Some of the pro-Steiner group on the other hand have suggested that they will sue us for removing material and started a Yahoo group suggesting that our over-reaction is as a result of my PMT - do men still think this stuff?

So you can see it's all very wearing. We have no wish to engage in correspondence with Percy Bratt. Experience tells us that even if you think you're on the side of common sense it can still cost you a lot of time and money!

What's more, as we've said a few times we have no idea of the writes and wrongs of the argument. And though we are reluctant and saddened to stop folks having a voice on any issue, as the law stands we - Mumsnet - are legally liable for what is said on Mumsnet. So the upshot is we cannot allow posts that are reported as being defamatory to stand. Even if they might be true - which is of course a defence - but one that we can not be sure of.

We've suggested to the anti-Steiner group that they start their own forum. They are clearly very certain of the validity of their position and therefore presumably would be happy to fight any ensuing legal battles - in fact in their position I'd imagine they'd been jumping over themselves to have a high-profile court case if what they say is true, is indeed true.

Similarly we've suggested that the pro-Steiner lot follow up their complaints with the individuals involved rather than Mumsnet but again they seem reluctant.

So all in all allowing this discussion to take place on Mumsnet is/has taken up an inordinate amount of time and is without question ill-advised from a legal perspective.

So I'm afraid I think the time has indeed come to "shut it down". Our previous legal encounter seemed a cause worth risking the Towers for but given that we don't even know the rights and wrongs of this debate and that most Mumsnetters are not engaged in it, we think this is a fight to take elsewhere.

Best,

Mumsnet Towers

northernrefugee39 · 08/07/2008 08:09

No they haven't- most are still there, my search was wrong.
I've asked to have the post removed.

My feeling is that the threads were winding down anyway.

Where they got out of hand was when bee came in, and deliberately obfiscated the situation, and old hand on chat boards, and at promoting self serving links to sites.

There have been many people who found the information at the beginning to be useful and comforting- ie, that their story wasn't the only one, and that although the schools and anthros go to lengths to imply these are isolated incidents, they aren't.

There are still people recently who have shared horrendous stories, this thread for instance where I think it was that the poster said a friend had been paid £8000 or something by the school to keep quiet about a teacher's bullying.

northernrefugee39 · 08/07/2008 07:23

ALL the Steiner threads have been deleted.
Where is the explanation?
Yurt- thanks for your comment about the story of our time. The location is fairly obvious I supose.

SaintGeorge · 07/07/2008 22:12

How many threads have been deleted out of interest? And how many posters banned?

Seems to be plenty of stuff still there when you search and not all old stuff either so is this a very recent problem?

I'm confused (yes,yes I know it doesn't take a lot)

llareggub · 07/07/2008 21:56

eurythmy, eurythmy, you've all got eurythmy!

Or something.

Sorry, will get my coat.

MmeLindt · 07/07/2008 21:08

Groundhog Day.

I am with Kewcumber. The threads self-destructed because they were so mindnumbing and confusing that no sane person would ever read them anyway.

They did not give advice to any MNetter looking for info on Steiner.

Go on, delete!

Yurtgirl · 07/07/2008 21:07

Northern - I have just read your story on your link. What really shocked me is not just what an awful experience the children had, but that I know the location you are talking about

Enjoy Mary queen - It the only fashion show I watch!

forevercleaning · 07/07/2008 21:06

eurythmy - that's it!! OMG it's all coming back to me now! We had to go outside and doo all these funny movements in the grounds before we started work, then there ws some kind of reading for the day.

It was quite a few years back and i thought it was completely bizarre then. I shall read that web page you linked as i think i would find it very interesting, as I can relate to what you are saying.

If i had a choice to send my children to a steiner school, there would be no way and that's just from what I experienced.

I used to joke with my friends about it being a cult, but there was definately a 'sinister' side to it.

northernrefugee39 · 07/07/2008 21:03

Going to watch mary Queen...

northernrefugee39 · 07/07/2008 21:03

tbh, I think the threasds were coming to a natural end anyway. Things are moving in other spherwes. But to ban and remove is just igniting a fire.

northernrefugee39 · 07/07/2008 21:01

But Whizz, by stlfling free speech about this, banning posts, that becomes the story rather than the issue in hand... it's digging a hole.
if people can speak freely, it isn't a problem

lulumama · 07/07/2008 21:00

exactly, the national press getting involved is soooooo not a good thing.

Kewcumber · 07/07/2008 21:00

I don;t think they were deleted - I think they self-combusted form boredom.

At least that is my current no-conspiracy theroy.

northernrefugee39 · 07/07/2008 20:59

Yurt- yes, I also agree about that. The bee was cxlever with his posting as someone pointed out. The endless chunks moved the stuff that irked him further down the board. then there were some verbose people with long strange quotes, some who came from my favouirite site mothering .com, and others.
it just got very very wordy and dull.
And lost the point.
But I still don't think that means threads shouold be deleted.

Whizzz · 07/07/2008 20:59

To echo what Yurtgirl said about the press - linking this to MN ... not good

lulumama · 07/07/2008 20:57

well, we are going to have to agree to disagree. the threads did not show any party on eitehr side of the deabte in a terribly edifying light.

northernrefugee39 · 07/07/2008 20:56

forever- yep- eurythmy used to reduce me to thigh clutching giggles too. And earnest talk of gnomes.
It's when all the occult sinister stuff iis being used with your children and kept from you with clasped hands and smiles that it gets nasty...

Yurtgirl · 07/07/2008 20:56

Northern - I think you hit the nailonthehead there when you said that the press are interested. If so then thats great but what we dont want is for MN to be drawn into that discussion.

I contacted MNtowers ages ago because I felt things were getting out of hand. I agree with you as well Northern regarding the need to enlighten those who think steiner schools are fluffy and nice. But I also think the continuous circular arguements, quotes and links to other sites werent entirely helpful.

northernrefugee39 · 07/07/2008 20:54

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