Miscarriage guidelines - fabulous - but...

I have never had a problem with hunker

She did immediately jump down my throat on this thread though and get all burning martyr oh woe is me I am so put upon and I think if she wants to continue to discuss this she can do so. Just because you know her personally and think she is the bollix doesn't mean that she is always 100% right about everything I'm afraid

I just can't see why there can't be info for everyone and that is all I have said if you can be bothered to read what I ahve posted
but obv you are now feeling all fragile and have to leave as you have had a howwid day.

Well so be it

I will away to bed too

indeed VVV (and FWIW I think Hunker is lovely, we just happen to clash far too frequently on these threads - and I've posted on her website, and she's going to come and see me for the day in the summer (I hope )

ahem

No CD, i'm not your therapist. If I was, I'd expect to be paid handsomely for it .

Look, I'm not here to get into a slanging match, but I don't particularly like the personal comments being made about hunker - they just arent necessary and just cheapen the 'debate' tbh. And since hunker is such a lovely lady I feel obliged to speak up and defend such a lovely lady who is here because she wants to do good things. You've seen her blog, right?

Using comments like "b/feeding nazi" is really low - surely you can see that? And as someone who is purporting to support b/feeding - you ought to know that saying such things are offensive on so many levels - and not just to b/feeders. We've had this discussion on MN a bazillion times anyway.

This is a non-starter really and is going round in circles so i'll leave it here I think. TBH, I've had a shitey day and need a thread with fluffy white clouds and pictures of David Tennant on it [verbal diarrhoea]]

Excerpts below in case you can't be arsed to scroll down...

"FWIW I think that better education about bottle feeding would make more people likely to breastfeed.

If they realised what a FAFF bottle feeding is in comparison to breast feeding, if they realised that in fact they would have to get up in teh night, go downstairs, warm the bottle (while baby screams in frenzy, awakening itself to a degree where it won't go back to sleep for bloody ages) rather than just grabbing baby and breastfeeding at the first peep, don't you think they might have second thoughts??"

"Why can't they just tell the truth

Tell people what you have to do to bottle feed

IE
you have to sterilise
it is a mare when you go out and a faff
you have to get up in the night as in my scenario below
it is expensive
etc etc

All at the same time as showing people HOW to actually go about doing the above (ie what equipment to buy, how to sterilise, what to do when out/in the night, how to choose formula...

Having first talked about breastfeeding, hopefully people will think "OMG bottle feeding sounds like a nightmare" and will breast feed

AND - (Added bonus) - those of us who really truly can't breastfeed will have been given the info we need.

Win win situation

(clearly the msg should also be BREASTFEED IF YOU CAN)"

Are you my therapist vvv?
I don't think you actually know anything about me or my "issues" so I think you might refrain from commenting personally as you seem to find it offensive if you feel I am doing it about someone else

I think hunker can come on and respond to me as she sees fit, I'm sure she doesnt' need you to do it for her.

You have clearly NOT read my posts which say that obviously breastfeeding is best and that it should be promoted.

I suggest you go and read them all before you say I am "spectacularly" missing the point

and excuse me VVV - it wasn't me that first raised the issue of support for bottlefeeding - so NERRRRR

"But poor information from HCP's didnt interfere with my use of it - I had to use it so muddled through. "

So you muddled through, as do 1000's of other parents, sadly most don't muddle through as easily as others do - we just don't hear about as apparently all that FFers have to do is follow the instructions on the side of the tin.

That's pretty low, CD.

hunker said that bottlefeeding support would be incorporated into it, and later that it was a necessary aspect of information that mothers require. She didn't say anything against "nasty" formula or bottles either. I think you are projecting your own 'issues' there.

I did actually use formula for DD so I'm well aware of the need for information and in no way biased against formula use - my DD needed it. But poor information from HCP's didnt interfere with my use of it - I had to use it so muddled through.

I think you are spectacularly missing the point that hunker is making that a "code of practice" (in the same way that those who suffer miscarriage/bereavement have had a set of minimum requirements of care set out on here) is required for all women to be able to refer to in order that they get proper, uniform and adequate support so that their breastfeeding isnt undermined and ultimately sabotaged by poorly equipped HCPs. You don't get bottlefeeding sabotaged in the same way. Surely you can see the difference?

I really dont get why you are making snidey comments and getting personal.

It is not a bf vs ff debate!

What on earth is wrong with giving information to both types of feeders?

God I now understand what is mean by bf nazis

only think about what you want
don't think there are any other possibilities
stick your fingers in your ears and go lalalalala and nasty horrid bottles of formula will go away

etc

I WAS NOT SUGGESTING THAT HUNKER'S SUGGESTION THAT THERE SHOULD BE GUIDELINES FOR BREASTFEEDING WERE IN ANY WAY WRONG
in fact if you bother to read my posts I am all in favour of it OBVIOUSLY

This seemed to me to be a thread started to say "well done on the miscarriage support, now what about other things"

I didn't realise (stoooopid me) that hunker was a one-agenda type person

Well I beg your pardon but there are other things that deserve attention, as this thread shows there is little info about bottlefeeding out there

Surely it is all about supporting mothers and some have to breastfeed as much as it bothers you - some can't do it at all, some find it too hard etc

I couldnt disagree more hula. I, and clearly many others feel that something that has a huge impact on both a mother and her baby's health and wellbeing both now and in their futures is of great importance.

Just because miscarriage and bereavement isnt on my radar right now, doesnt mean I think it's less important, which is why I'm pretty that you can dismiss something that causes more admissions to hospital in an infants life than anything else, just because it's not on your radar.

But has it turned into a BF v FF arguement? I do believe that there should be equal amounts of support, advce and information for all expectant and new mums on both methods of feeding, and right now there is not.

And I do think that MN can probably only deal with one thing at a time regards such guidelines, etc. We don;t want them becoming all mingled, and if too many at once - no longer important. So why not concentrate on this one first and see how it goes. I do thing it is an issue requiring more attention and in greater need that feeding advice right now - so let's concentrate on it and see if it is a successful approach first.

Then Mn can move onto the next agenda.

There wasn't a need to turn this thread into a FF v BF debate, which I think is what Hunker got upset about. It was about asking for guidelines for BF support, anyone else can start a thread asking the same for FF support or any other support they want.

On hunker, yes. Jolly nice of you to pop along and do that. Very helpful of you.

No QV. I'm stating my opinion.

So have you just come on here to put hunker's dummy back in then?

QV - It wasn't Hunkers question that caused the reaction.
Hunker spat the dummy because other posters dared to say things she would rather they didn't for whatever reason.

It doesnt have to be either/or though hula. No-one is suggesting otherwise. I'm 110% behind miscarriage guidelines. But b/feeding support is equally dire and needs highlighting. To ask for that shouldnt cause the reaction it has and result in Hunker being called a "martyr" and "tyrannical" fgs.

And have to agree with CD - there is little out there to give any information in bottle feedinging - either for or against. nd certainly nothing at all coming from health professionals.

TBH at the moment, and from my experience and that of friends I think there is a greater need for support for those who have suffered miscarriages, than there is for breastfeeding support.

I found that there was, and still appears to be, lots of advice and information available to new and expectant mums regarding breastfeeding.

Howver there appears to be virtually nothing available to those going through, or ho have recently been through, a miscarry.

Well, I wasn't expecting this when I opened the thread

Hunker, I think you are being far too tyrannical on the subject.

CD wasn't contradicting or heckling you, she was just adding her own thoughts.

Steady on CD. She's not being a martyr at all. I think that HCP's let you down in terms of advice wrt to support for feeding your baby. Most definitely. But, you are very much in the minority and when it comes down to it - this is more a matter of choice than no choice. Informed choice at that. Which is why I think that bringing in of bottlefeeding issues have muddied the waters somewhat.

I dont particularly understand why there is an argument discussion to be had on this - breastfeeding guidelines are sorely needed. Maybe bottlefeeding guidelines are needed - but not at the expense of good b/feeding advice. So I dont see why, FAQ in particular, feels they need to argue the case for bottlefeeding. If it's so desperately needed - by all means start your own campaign for it. I'm all for more information. Hell, I'll sign my name to it. But, I dont see the point in pissing all over a thread started to ask for breastfeeding guidelines just to prove that bottlefeeding advice is as appropriate/required. What a bizarre thing to do!

As an aside, call it a pondering, if you will, I dont actually think that there are many informed women who choose not to b/feed. I think it's also important to ask why women who dont want to b/feed or why they feel their bodies cannot be relied upon to continue to sustain their baby's life. Interesting.

And other than in reply to your message, I've never mentioned expressing so not sure how you can disagree on my opinions of expressing when you don't actually know what they are!

oh hunker stop being such a burning martyr
no-one jumped on you

I simply said I thought it would be good to have bottle feeding support too

If i had said it would be good to have support code of practice for people with something else you wouldn't ahve batted an eyelid

And you yoursefl said "I knew someone would say that"
So don't go all bleeding martyrish on us ffs

I really don't care what's on a packet to honest. I don't give formula and I'm not a "formula buddy". I would like for every woman to have support in whatever they choose to do, but other than cheering someone on, I'm not it so I can't get that worked up about what's on a packet. It's just not my unpaid as it is job!

I don't know much about maternity leave being too ill to work myself, but I was under the impression it was a minimum of 6 months, I didn't realise they were returning to work before then. I'm not sure why you are telling me about it because I never brought it up. Please don't get into expressing with me because I have had to do it having had a baby at 31 weeks and I will never tell anyone it is easy, want to get into a compare notes on this?