what on earht are you all doing wih tis suiceide stuff

i can see dittany's point myself,but i think it depends enirely on what the mental health services are like where you live.having used MH sevices both in greater london,and in the north where i am now,i am aware it varies far too much for anybody to make blanket statements about getting 'professional help'.

the MH professionals where i am would do a wondeful job if only they werent expected to do the job of 7 people,or their job title/description got changed every 2 weeks by some clueless pencil pusher.

boco.i agree that people in this position should be directed to get urgent professional advice,but until they are able to ,or someone can help them to do it,my personal opinion is that just in the immediate instance coming to mn for some help is better than nothing and would be awful if they felt they couldnt do that.Of course they should go to the appropriate medical people and if they were thinking logically they would,but from experience of my sister,logic flies out of the window when she has been suicidal.i would like to think that someone would help my sister and try and persuade her to get the correct help.

dittany, I agree that mental health is still very much a taboo subject. Apart from that I think I pretty much disagree with everything else in your post.

Boco has summarised very accurately the reasons why some of us have concerns about these specific suicide threads. I still have grave concerns that mn is seen as 'as good as' or 'better' alternative to someone seeking help who is experiencing acute suicidal ideations. It is not about people turning their backs on those in need of desperate help, it (well in my mind) is that is mn the best place for them to be seeking it?

Objectivity and FAQ have very kindly explained that these threads have helped them through the worst times and have encouraged them to seek RL help. If that is the case, then they should undoubtedly stay (both the posters and the threads - obviously ).

The overwhelming impression from this thread, is that these threads should not be deleted. I'm sure mnhq will have taken note of that.

I really can't comment on your last paragraph, as I think it is rude in the extreme to those who have trained and work as mental health professionals. But you are entitled to your own opinions of course.

That is very far from how i'm reading this Dittany. Yes, it's a taboo subject, but that's not the motivation behind this at all. I bet you many of the people you're arguing with here have experience of the mental health system.

And maybe those responding to these threads wouldn't want thread deletion, but maybe some of those people are quite enjoying the drama of it all. NOt all of course, there are some wonderful and genuinely very thoughtful people on mn. However, it's about the person in distress isn't it - if they are suicidal they need actual real help, medication, counselling, hospital treatment, cpn care - none of which mn provides - maybe should and could signpost to, and certainly providing people to talk things through with after the crisis, but in a crisis situation, the drawn out dramatic chase threads could be dangerous and damaging.

Disagree. I don't think mental illness is a taboo subject on MN. This place is stuffed with people with some form or history of depression - it is very noticeable as a newcomer. And it is often, if not always, talked about.

I think you are misunderstanding the really very cogent arguments put forward on this thread Dittany, and it is quite wrong really of you to pretend that people who are saying this is not the place, and that people who are seriously mentally ill should be seeking proper help are saying that because they either don't understand or don't care. It's almost a wilful misunderstanding of their POV.

It will be interesting to see what MN comes up with I think.

Mummlin I don't think that people are suggesting that those in despair don't come and talk things through at all. I don't think that the people who are talking about thread deletion are being cruel or insensitive, quite the opposite, they believe that it is actually more compassionate to direct people quickly to rl help rather than have it become a spectacle and a drama, get advice that may or may not be helpful, run the risk of having a very serious situation actually not being taken seriously because none of us know what is really happening, it could be distressing for those involved, distressing if there is a successful suicide for anyone who has tried to help.

No one is objecting to threads saying 'i'm really struggling to cope, please talk to me'. It's the 'i'm going to kill myself' threads which we need to think about the best way to approach for everyone.

i personally dont think that people who are in despair should be stopped from coming on here for help.For some it is their only lifeline and i for one am happy to at least talk to someone if i think it will help.God forbid that mn gets so uncaring that vulnerable people are turned away,or feel they have no-where to turn.No we are not experts and im sure that most of us would urge people to get proffessional help,but when they come to mn in depair ,at least they are opening up to someone albeit someone they dont know.

Just to add, I am horrified at the judgments being made by people regarding the mindset of the suicidal.How can any of us really know. Ever talked to a dead person? Ever been someone else? We are individuals with unique ways of thinking and responding.

To say that the people who come out the other side never really were genuinely suicidal is ridiculous.

And expat, nearly every recent post has mentioned substance abuse. I'm not sure why that is such a crucial point. I have never been drunk or under the influence of drugs when posting but the way you are coming across seems to imply that it is likely that most people will be half cut.

Also,why is the fact that some previously suicidal people here have never posted when feeling this way supposed to be representative of intent?

There is doubt, I think - in the tiniest ways - in the minds of those who are successful in suicide. It's only when one loses functionality that it becomes certain in mind and reality. Even though one may have decided against life, one doesn't know anything about death in order to 'choose' it. So it is really a case of leaving things to fate. The space between not wanting to live and not knowing what death will be like. That's the doubt. It is not doubt about having nothing left to live for or doubt about whether you really will be unmissed. That is not the doubt that makes you post or call someone,etc.It's fear of death itself yet knowing that life is unbearable.

I'm sure there are people who feign suicidal feelings in order to gain attention but they are equally in need themselves.

Glad to hear MNHQ are on to it.

I've been thinking about this thread so much since yesterday, arguing the pros and cons of online, unprofessional help.

Both sides have valid points but whatever is decided, to abruptly delete a post with any mention of severe depression and/or suicidal thoughts is cruel, inhuman and imo, unthinkable. Especially on a website designed for mothers - as mums, we're all extremely vulnerable to self-doubt, fatigue, 'blues', 'burn-out', full-blown depression, etc., etc. Who's going to decide which poster is actually at risk of topping themselves?

Mental illness is still a taboo subject - in RL & anywhere else, despite all vociferous claims to the contrary. You're less likely to risk rejection online when confessing to a mental breakdown than you would be if you confessed to a friend, family member, neighbor, colleague or other medical non-professional. The usual reaction of those who wouldn't know depression if it smacked them in the face is "pull yourself together!"

Sorry for the rant.

Sorry for the delay in responding to this thread. We're going to be posting our thoughts and policies on this early next week.
Cheers,
MNHQ

This is a tough one. I can see sense in both sides. Certainly we should refer all to appropriate professional help.

I'd hate to think that folk were thinking we were turning the other cheek by doing so.

I'm quite sensitive to this sort of thing anyway which is why I'll post something acknowledging or re-affirming other posts but try not to get involved. Having had a "final" conversation with someone (without realising it) who was then sucessful in their suicide attempt a few days later, I'm acutely aware of how much guilt can be felt at saying the wrong thing, or feeling like you've not said the right thing.

'If someone presented at their A+E either acutely suicidal or acutely psychotic they would be seen by a psychiatrist. They may have to wait, especially if they are in the middle of nowhere and the dr has to travel, but they would be seen. '

it would be good if that really happened,but it doesnt,not where i live,and its not even the middle of nowhere.

Justa you may be good at barn fighting but your thomas know-hoo is waaaay slow. Yes, I'm a perky little engine.

Not always tiredlady. Maybe that's how it should work, but it certainly doesn't always. Have had hugely bad experiences of this (not me being suicidal) and the system doesn't always work and really good help can be hard to find.

However, if someone is acutely ill then mn is only really a point for information as to where to go next. I do find it uncomfortable when it becomes a spectacle. And yes it is all about ME

I don't think 'I've been there and felt this way' type posts will hinder the OP in anyway, but I do worry about people that post this type if response if they aren't going to be able to cope with the worst.

I always post my experiences on these threads and say I got help, sorted myself out, but tbh, if it happened, I'd think, damn, I can't believe she killed herself, what a shame, poor dcs etc, and then move on.

I worry others may take that guilt upon themselves and it could crate a vicious circle of people feeling suicidal making themselves feel worse by trying to 'help' when in reality, one message on computer screen isn't going to stop anyone.

I also think though we need to reply, total non-response bar 'call someone' could be enough to make someone already suicidal looking for that hand to grasp to stop them going over the cliff could think 'fine, fuck you, you've proved it's not worth me staying' and do the deed, whereas IMO if they are posting, they are still unsure.

(Sorry, rambling)

Divastrop
If someone presented at their A+E either acutely suicidal or acutely psychotic they would be seen by a psychiatrist. They may have to wait, especially if they are in the middle of nowhere and the dr has to travel, but they would be seen.