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References to underage sex on Sex board

362 replies

BenCoopersSupportWren · 23/02/2023 23:02

I haven’t been following the Sex topics in Active furore too closely, beyond agreeing on one of the early threads that it would be better for the Board to revert to the way it was - out of Active, with a longer qualifying time to be able to post.

However I’ve just read a thread which, on the face of it, is just reminiscing about posters’ ‘first times’ but which includes numerous disclosures of underage sex, including some that involved grooming, and one or two that are genuinely heartbreaking testimonies of child sexual abuse. They are particularly jarring interspersed as they are between end-of-pier type humour and jokes of others’ experience.

As I just posted there: “there is a reason most ‘mainstream’ dedicated end-user sex sites like Literotica, BDSMLR etc don’t allow stories or posts that are explicit about underage sex even when clearly written by adults, and will remove such posts when brought to the moderators’ attention. I used to work in the CJS and I’m afraid to say that such descriptions - even when expressed in short and simple terms - have currency among paedophiles. Part of my job was keeping the video testimony of CSA victims and any associated transcripts locked away so that they didn’t fall into the wrong hands. Unfortunately it’s not just explicit photos and videos that they get off to.”

For clarity, by “explicit about underage sex” I mean making specific reference to, not that the material has to be particularly sexually explicit. The exact same thread would simply not be allowed to stand on Literotica’s chat forum, for example.

While there have always been examples in other parts of the site of posters making disclosures of having been abused, that is a very different thing to sharing it in a section that only the most naive or wilfully obtuse would deny will be used in part for titillation. My issue isn’t that the thread is particularly sexually explicit - it mostly isn’t, and I’m pretty broad-minded… in context. But no one could argue that “where did you lose your virginity?” is masquerading as a support / how to / informative thread; it’s for entertainment and kicks only, be the latter humour or a sexual thrill. (A few posters on that thread have been supportive to those who disclosed their abuse, but ‘support’ is clearly not the original purpose of the thread.)

IMO it is extremely remiss of MN to disregard the ‘good practice’ rules that other sex sites maintain for handling material relating to references to underage sex/CSA, both because of the type of person attracted to those sites if such rules aren’t in place and from a liability / arse-covering perspective. This, combined with the lack of any age verification or warning for that part of the site, makes it even more obvious that MN don’t understand what is involved in safely and legally hosting a ‘sex chat site’ or part thereof.

OP posts:
beastlyslumber · 24/02/2023 17:53

Bamboux · 24/02/2023 17:50

Since then there has been a huge amount of feedback - most of it negative. Perhaps we’ve been naive in underestimating the impact and potential unintended consequences

I don't really understand how your conclusion from this is that you're going to ... leave it there?

Yes, that is strange. I honestly thought that what would follow that sentence would be, "therefore we've decided to remove it from active."

It would be good to know the rationale for keeping it in active after you've been discussing it all day and you admit to underestimating the negative impact.

JustWantedToSayThis · 24/02/2023 17:51

ProbablyNotAGoodIdea · 24/02/2023 17:43

It's such a relief that perverts and trolls always follow guidelines. Phew!

Eh? That could be said for trolls in any topic.

Break the guidelines and MN can delete/ban them.

Bamboux · 24/02/2023 17:50

Since then there has been a huge amount of feedback - most of it negative. Perhaps we’ve been naive in underestimating the impact and potential unintended consequences

I don't really understand how your conclusion from this is that you're going to ... leave it there?

ProbablyNotAGoodIdea · 24/02/2023 17:49

TangledWebOfDeception · 24/02/2023 17:46

There isn’t any defence of that.

But they've been discussing it all day, they must have a defence! They just aren't sharing it. So why not? Why can the only reason they give us be, they wanted to try it? And now no one likes it, they still want to keep it - because...??

TangledWebOfDeception · 24/02/2023 17:46

ProbablyNotAGoodIdea · 24/02/2023 17:36

There's also the inference in Justine's response that threads describing underage sex are fine and allowed, until someone finds them uncomfortable or regrets posting. Then they get deleted, but only then. So no guidelines or active moderation of the sex board. And MN are happy to host a sex chat thread - I can't see any possible defence of that.

There isn’t any defence of that.

TangledWebOfDeception · 24/02/2023 17:45

JustWantedToSayThis · 24/02/2023 17:34

Only those who have been a registered user of Mumsnet for at least 7 days can post in this topic. Mumsnet is a site for grown-ups - you can choose what you want to share with other users but please don’t send unwanted PMs or be otherwise disrespectful.

Thank you @JustineMumsnet as long as posters are banned if they do send unwanted PMs, I think this is fair enough.

Hopefully it'll put an end to all the squabbling and repetitive threads now.

Well no, not really okay at all. They’ll already have sent the creepy message(s), won’t they! FGS this is not hard to grasp.

Not good enough @JustineMumsnet.

The sex topic absolutely does not need to be visible in Active. The rationale given is frankly quite stupendously lacking and doesn’t justify this change at all IMO. If you want to make your users aware you can sticky it somewhere so those who want to search for it can find it.

But okay, fair enough, I see why your priorities lie, and that’s your prerogative.

Okunevo · 24/02/2023 17:44

Our primary motivation for putting Sex in Active was, as it always is in these cases, to increase visibility to this part of the site for those who need advice.
Are all topics now in Active then, so people can find them who need advice? I thought some, like SN, weren't?

ProbablyNotAGoodIdea · 24/02/2023 17:43

JustWantedToSayThis · 24/02/2023 17:42

That would be against talk guidelines.

It's such a relief that perverts and trolls always follow guidelines. Phew!

JustWantedToSayThis · 24/02/2023 17:42

beastlyslumber · 24/02/2023 17:38

Mumsnet is a site for grown-ups - you can choose what you want to share with other users

What if someone wants to share their stories of abusing children, or pictures of their genitals?

It seems like you haven't really thought this through.

That would be against talk guidelines.

ProbablyNotAGoodIdea · 24/02/2023 17:42

If they've discussed it all day, it's really strange that the one reason they can offer is visibility. Against the numerous very good reasons why it shouldn't be more visible, why safeguards are so important, why posters on and off the topic don't want it to be more visible - MN just do?

Women with genuine questions about sex post in Relationships, they always have and they've always found support there.

beastlyslumber · 24/02/2023 17:38

Mumsnet is a site for grown-ups - you can choose what you want to share with other users

What if someone wants to share their stories of abusing children, or pictures of their genitals?

It seems like you haven't really thought this through.

monsteramunch · 24/02/2023 17:37

Most MNetters who do the sex board say they don't see the need for the threads to show in active threads.

Most MNetters who don't use the sex board say they don't see the need for btw threads to show in active threads.

So it's hard to understand the motivation behind ignoring the preference of the majority of users, both those who use the sex board and those who don't.

I'm not sure the reasoning has been properly communicated? You say that it was to drive visibility of the board but the majority of people on and off it agree that it doesn't need to be in active and that it being in active has more negatives than positives.

WombsofWimbledon · 24/02/2023 17:37

Also, with Sex topic posts in Active, users seeing them there will not come across the pinned note, presumably, that they would, should they seek the topic out. Perhaps I’m wrong.

ProbablyNotAGoodIdea · 24/02/2023 17:36

There's also the inference in Justine's response that threads describing underage sex are fine and allowed, until someone finds them uncomfortable or regrets posting. Then they get deleted, but only then. So no guidelines or active moderation of the sex board. And MN are happy to host a sex chat thread - I can't see any possible defence of that.

WombsofWimbledon · 24/02/2023 17:35

Yes, if it’s a genuine experiment for raising visibility only, that so many users have said (in ‘the myriad of threads currently running about the Sex topic pretty much all day’) they’d prefer not to be the case (or are neutral about) then what’s the motivation to continue? Genuinely.

If the primary motivation was visibility, was the secondary anything related to partnerships with sex toy manufacturers?

JustWantedToSayThis · 24/02/2023 17:34

Only those who have been a registered user of Mumsnet for at least 7 days can post in this topic. Mumsnet is a site for grown-ups - you can choose what you want to share with other users but please don’t send unwanted PMs or be otherwise disrespectful.

Thank you @JustineMumsnet as long as posters are banned if they do send unwanted PMs, I think this is fair enough.

Hopefully it'll put an end to all the squabbling and repetitive threads now.

beastlyslumber · 24/02/2023 17:32

Thanks for the response Justine. But I don't see the rationale for keeping the sex topic in active when the consensus from users is that they don't want it there. Those who frequent the sex board don't want randoms turning up because the threads in active. And everyone else does not want to see threads about rimming and anal sex while they're idly scrolling. There are serious concerns about safeguarding which MN needs to consider as well. There's no age restriction on MN, it's basically a public forum, so facilitating private chats, the sex chat thread, discussions of abuse and paedophilia, etc etc, should all be looked at through a safeguarding lens.

If the reason for putting the sex topic is active is so that people know it's there, then job done. You can now put it back in its corner, surely?

ProbablyNotAGoodIdea · 24/02/2023 17:27

All those 'relevant topics' like rimming and squirting just have to be in Active now? And sex pests won't PM thanks to the friendly message asking them not to? When so many users are not in favour of this board being in Active, why keep it there? It really doesn't seem like anyone wants it.

JustineMumsnet · 24/02/2023 17:20

Hi everyone. Thanks for posting - and sorry for the delay in responding. We’ve been discussing the posts here and on the myriad of threads currently running about the Sex topic pretty much all day.

Cards on the table - we put the Sex topic into Active a few weeks ago and we should have given people the heads up, so they could hide the topic in advance. Since then there has been a huge amount of feedback - most of it negative. Perhaps we’ve been naive in underestimating the impact and potential unintended consequences - to be honest we’d meant for the topic to go into active when we introduced the ‘hide topic’ feature a while back - it was an oversight that we didn’t. Then roughly a year ago we changed the time from registration from 90 days to 7 - we believe this is a sufficient delay to deter trolls and, since this change, we’ve not noticed any increase in trolling on the topic. But we accept there could be a wider knock-on consequence here with the overall tone on the boards and it’s something we’re monitoring closely.

Our primary motivation for putting Sex in Active was, as it always is in these cases, to increase visibility to this part of the site for those who need advice. We know that the sex chat threads have been referenced a lot but the majority of threads on the topic are discussing things we know are important and relevant to a significant percentage of MNers - such as post-partum sex, erectile dysfunction, and lack of sex drive. We wanted people to be able to find these threads and, hopefully, find some useful advice and support. It was never our intention to ‘sex up Mumsnet’ - we believe that sex is a pretty regular part of life and hence threads involving sex have always been posted across the boards.

We certainly acknowledge that the sex chat threads are divisive but we cannot see any evidence that it’s driving more male users to join - as far as we can see the men on the sex board are regulars who’ve been using this forum for some time, it’s just their presence is more visible.

Of course the last thing we want is to encourage a load of sex pests onto Mumsnet and I can promise you that we are monitoring this very closely and will of course have a re-think if we see any evidence of it. We’ve also pinned a notice to the top of the topic asking users not to send unwanted PMs. We’ll ban anyone who does.

The thread referenced in the OP was deleted this morning. We had several reports from posters who said they regret posting and it was clearly making a lot of people very uncomfortable so we took it down.

Please do keep letting us know if you have any particular concerns - I can promise you that every report and every post on Site Stuff is read and carefully considered.

ProbablyNotAGoodIdea · 24/02/2023 17:16

As MN haven't responded to this today or indicated they'll do anything about the points raised in the OP regarding following any sensible guidelines for sex sites, I imagine Friday night on here will be more eventful than usual 🤮

MrsTerryPratchett · 24/02/2023 16:33

MH370

That's the one! Thanks.

Bamboux · 24/02/2023 16:24

MrsTerryPratchett · 24/02/2023 15:35

Like yours, my husband also has the mumsnet app on his phone and he sometimes browses and sends me links to threads. I think he likes it because the female nature of the space makes the tone and vibe very different from places he usually frequents - also because it helps him understand my point of view on a range of issues.

I remember when DH realised how good MN was. It was when that plane went down and couldn't be found. M, something. He was pontificating about it and I said, "oh MN says blah blah", he looked confused and I said, "well there are a million women on there, including flight nerds, air traffic controllers, pilots and others who know a lot". We (of course) were right. And he then started on any zeitgeist or current issue, to ask.

He sometimes suggests something I can post from his area of expertise. I often say, "that's OK dear they've covered that". Grin

MH370. Can I recommend to you and your husband the Admiral Cloudberg series on reddit?

Also, my husband is the same as yours - Always enjoyed hearing me read out funny bits of mn, enjoyed reading links I sent him, but would never have registered or posted himself. He valued the different perspectives and voices you used to get here, as one of the few majority female spaces on the Internet.

How sad that that has gone.

it's almost funny how massively butthurt men get when they are told that their opinions just aren't needed, or wanted. It makes you realise how rarely they ever encounter that in life.

lummsnet · 24/02/2023 16:00

Yeah. Even I can tell that was sarcastic, to be fair.

MrsTerryPratchett · 24/02/2023 15:57

monsteramunch · 24/02/2023 15:55

@Northernsouloldies

No offence or sarcasm was intended.

"Sorry I spoke" wasn't sarcastic?

It obviously was, so why claim otherwise?

Very odd.

Schroedinger's sarcasm. It's only sarcastic if someone notices!

monsteramunch · 24/02/2023 15:55

@Northernsouloldies

No offence or sarcasm was intended.

"Sorry I spoke" wasn't sarcastic?

It obviously was, so why claim otherwise?

Very odd.