How should we refer to parents who take their children abroad to have their genitalia removed?

Language is important. If you can't accurately and clearly identify something, how are we supposed to understand what is happening? How do we protect in law? Twee phrases obfuscate reality.

Language really matters. Name it. Understand it.

Ffs.

@PinkyU
FGM is the forced removal of genitalia, reassignment surgery is done with the approval of the participant. Quite a distinctive difference

You quite obviously have no idea how abuse works. The tragedy of much abuse, especially where children are involved, is that the child often does go along with it. Just like women go along with misogyny. We are all groomed to take on the perspectives of those who are grooming us.

I work with many young women who have gone through FGM. Yes, some of them talk about protesting, resisting and screaming but more of them say they accepted the process, even felt proud. They were told it made them more precious, and they believed that.And yet for the rest of their lives they hated their bodies, suffered from shame and depression and never realised why. For many of them it was only much later in life that they understood that they had been violated, and why FGM generally is a sign of violent misogyny. This can happen to children who have been sexually abused too. At the time, they are told it is happening because they are special. And although it deeply wounds them, they partly believe that they are ok with it.

So, FGM and gender reassignment surgery are often really not so different. The people subjected to it might believe it is fine, even that it will benefit them. That is because they have been brainwashed.

I'm not getting into the wider argument when I say this is simply incorrect. FGM and breast ironing is very often carried out with the approval (not informed consent) of the injured party.

There are very many cultural factors and pressures which entail that the cases we hear about are often those either from countries where those presssures are absent or the brave outliers who are forced to undergo serious and potentially lifelong harm.

Maybe we should be more specific, cutting their dick and balls off and installing a hole that needs to be dialated for life so that they can be penetrated*. And functionless breasts attached for the purposes of confusion others about your birth sex

• because that's what makes you a woman apparently

Child abuse apologists are revolting.

MGM? If castration is not accurate enough, perhaps Male Genital Mutilation would suffice?

Fucking pissed off about this. No child can consent/approve/enthusiastically participate in making themselves infertile and butchering themselves.

My opinion or your opinion on the subject isn't even relevant. It was illegal here and it's illegal there now. You should be able to call abuse of a minor, abuse. Though castration isn't really accurate as it's far worse than a basic castration.

Alison you are so like my reallife mate Ali, it's unreal.

I am making Heart eyes at you.

That comment has made me feel sick.

Children can be “enthusiastic and active participants” in the removal of their genitalia?

Your beliefs are dangerous and disturbing. Have a word with yourself and for fuck’s sake, stay away from kids.

@PinkyU you seem to just be reciting the end goals of grooming. Do you think children deserve any protection at all from malign adult influence?

Jesus. You people keep unintentionally outting yourselves don't you?

So can we call pedophiles, pedophiles if the child is a participant? Is it ok to give drugs and alcohol to children if they drink it enthusiastically?

If a male child identifies as female can someone operating on their genitals then be prosecuted for FGM? If not then the law is saying trans women are not women - or at least that there is no such thing a a trans child.

But this whole thread will be deleted soon.

Abusers

It’s our tone again ladies.

Do remember that it's never solely about the substance - it's always also about the overall tone of the post.

It would be just as accurate to refer to medical management of a TOP as 'poisoning the cells that comprise the future baby'

It would go down like a cup of cold sick. Even though it's entirely medically accurate.

Conversations about what should happen in the medical management of minors who seek reassignment are important. But choice of language is doing so.

You would be highly disingenuous if you did not know the "but I'm only stating the science" is a slogan, not a neutral statement.

It is very much on use by anti-trans campaigner, and I think it's right to remove that stalking horse.

The same debate can be had without adopting the slogan of the bigots

A monstrous, homophobic, narcissistic, gas-lighting, evil child abuser.

The child just wanted to play with Barbies.

Imagine the story if they'd let the boy play with the dolls and accepted him as he was...

Just a reminder, everyone - MNHQ has in the past employed a TRA (the intern, Emma Healey, who doxed posters from the FWR boards) who said that there were others at MNHQ who felt the same as she did.

I suspect that MNHQ is like many workplaces at the moment - some vocal woke supporters of trans rights, some very quietly gender critical people trying not to put their heads above the parapet, and a number who are completely oblivious to the debate and it’s potential consequences.

This would explain the inconsistent deletions and censorship as well as the response LangCleg received when she pointed out the parallels between this and an abusive relationship.

Apologies you are absolutely right, my wording was off.

I can’t believe it’s recognised that girls can’t consent to FGM however willing they may seem, but if it’s trans surgery this is somehow different and absolutely fine.