Talk Guidelines and references to disability

God, the bat signal definitely went out for this one, didn't it? 😂😂

🤣🤣🤣

Also - what's davro?

Trust me @SquirrelSoShiny ive been on the receiving end of some hateful abuse from self-described autism advocates who objected to me using the term “classic autism”. Both words are offensive. Together they warrant a firing squad apparently. So I agree with your second paragraph.

I also think that ableist language is used with greater impunity on MN than other forms of hate speech and I would like to see a more consistent approach. There is plainly a subset of MN’ers who are capable of nuance and measured consideration of the interaction between (certain) behaviours and (certain) NDiversity. However, a large minority are not and it can become open season for the type of inflammatory remarks described in the OP.

On that we can agree 👍

I think that some online groups are giving people a harmful belief that the world should be a 'safe space' from ever being challenged or offended. It makes reality painful for them when they step outside their online bubble and this makes them feel madly oppressed.

We can try to make the world a little softer edged but there are limits. In an ideal world I would always fall over onto a crash mat but in reality concrete remains concrete 😬

@SquirrelSoShiny It is my experience tbh. Maybe this is analagous to the BBC constantly being accused of left/right wing bias. The fact they’re accused of both equally possibly means the balance is about right… 🤷🏻‍♀️

Okay I am going to address the point, because it comes up a lot,
that (a) other people do these bad behaviours too, so they are therefore not autistic/ dementia/ whatever-condition behaviours.

This argument is relying on the false premise that a behaviour can only be an autistic/ dementia related, if ONLY autistic people./ people with dementia do it. I hope that point alone is enough to show the falsehood of that position. There are only a limited range of human behaviours. There are not special ones just for certain conditions. Certain behaviours are associated with certain conditions, not exclusive to them. It can still be true that certain behaviours and traits are typical (not universal) of people with certain conditions and caused by those conditions.

We all forget things. Some people will be forgetting things due to early stage dementia. The fact that other people forget things does not negate the fact that some are forgetting due to their dementia. A white person who forgets things does not do so because they are white. They might be doing so because they are demented,. There is no evidence base that forgetfulness is caused by whiteness. There is an evidence base that it can be caused by dementia (to answer this inevitable false comparison, which I always think is a sign of the desperation of a truly weak case).

Many of us get emotionally disregulated. Some will be emotionally disregulated because of their autism. There are behaviours which are associated with certain conditions, however inconvenient some may find that truth.

Goodnight.

That's not my experience but may be yours. When in doubt, I always report individual posts.

Well said. And Mumsnet is so hair trigger delete happy when it comes to disability threads/posts, it's hilarious that anyone says the opposite. If only they deleted racist posts as quickly as they delete any discussion on disabilities/ASD.

The problem with that @SquirrelSoShiny is that the “genuine questions” tend to escalate rapidly into insults and barely-disguised bigotry towards ND people. See also: every thread about the traveling community and/or channel migrants. The main difference is that those threads get deleted.

imvho MN should treat both equally. It tends to be much more trigger-happy with one and laissez-faire with the other. Completely illogical.

Yep. Discussion helps. Part of my self-diagnosis of ADHD came from Mumsnet discussion threads. I then made the decision to have that confirmed by a Psychiatrist.

I do agree with this.

These threads get so tedious and I'm saying that as someone who is both neurodivergent and physically disabled.

I'm happy to call out hateful bollocks but that doesn't include people having sincere conversations asking sincere questions about underlying conditions. Those posts I might engage with in good faith if I disagree with them BUT I won't try and shut down honest discussion. I'm under no illusions that my neurodivergence and physical impairment affects my loved ones.

Some posters need to stop the victim Olympics and DARVO bollocks. Or better yet find a new hyperfocus. I recommend cats and Cross-stitch. Both are quite soothing. I can hyperfocus on them forever

You obviously have your own personal reasons for doing this, but your position is now clearly so detached from reason and evidence and reality that there is nothing to be gained by engaging further with you, so I won't

Jolly good.

But in the example you are giving they are not saying ' they are autistic' . They are saying ' maybe', they are offering it up as a possibility

Heres another corker… what about if a white family moved in next door shortly before my car was broken into. I’m not saying the fact that they are white means they are thieves. I’m offering it as a possibility…

We okay with that? What about if the family was…

black?
jewish?
gypsy?
chinese?
autistic?

ANY intolerant thinking comes from a place of bigotry. If one form of lazy stereotype is not okay (and I think we can all agree that it isn’t) okay), then neither should any other be.

Anyone who claims that the final category is somehow different to the others is looking for excuses to maintain a lazy stereotypical mindset.

Ok, this argument you are making is completely bonkers. For whatever reason you have to completely ignore the extremely well established evidence base of a range of conditions and the manifestation of these behaviours due to these conditions, to enable you to sustain your position. The fact that you need to do this shows your position is actually unsustainable. You obviously have your own personal reasons for doing this, but your position is now clearly so detached from reason and evidence and reality that there is nothing to be gained by engaging further with you, so I won't.

The plain reality is that certain conditions can cause those with those conditions to behave in ways that can be upsetting, anti-social and difficult for those subject to them to understand

That seems dangerously close to “self-appointed MN psychologist” to me. You mention both your husband and your mother - your experience proves nothing, and my reference to cunt/husband was a pisstake for that reason.

It’s also “plain reality” that certain other groups in society CAN behave in ways that are upsetting, anti-social etc. Point that out - get banned. Stick it to an autistic person - crack on, vipers.

It’s shameless and appalling.

Well quite. I had a friend who went out on a night out with a man from her social group and another female friend. At the end of the night, he made a really inappropriate comment she found offensive. She complained about it to someone else. They told her he was autistic (he was). With this, she understood his behaviour and went on to became really good friends with him.

I know, that's not the happy ending @Deguster would have wanted. In her dream world that man would have been labelled a cunt and be ostracised and friendless.

Perhaps a linked section of examples of things which generally are and aren't ok might help?

I haven't called any autistic male and arsehole. Its you who has done that. The word you used was cunt actually, managing to combine misogyny with hatred against an autistic person there - quite the achievement. Go you!

As you know, Autism is a spectrum, so the fact that your H is not the same as my H proves nothing. Doesn't stop my H's traits from being autistic ones. Would a Venn Diagram help?

You are in no position to diagnose anyone either way I haven't done this though, have I? My H was diagnosed by two professionals after an extensive assessment. Following that I did my own reading, and yes, the behaviours my husband displays absolutely are standard. And no, that does not mean every autistic person has them, but does mean they are HIS autistic traits. Again I refer you to a Venn Diagram, being as you seem found of them.

your experiences proves fuck all about anyone else’s You read that back to yourself, about the post you sent to me, and then reflect on how inappropriate your post was even by your own standards.

actually I find it helpful sometimes that people do suggest various conditions as possibilities, rather than letting the poster just rant away about how awful or annoying someone is. It can at least open the possibility that the behaviour isn't being done deliberately, or that there might be difficult circumstances around it, and in some ways, that can make life easier for people with those conditions - I think back to some of the comments and reactions years ago to what might have just been annoying or weird behaviour, whereas now there is much greater awareness that the behaviour isn't necessarily because someone is awkward or unpleasant or aloof or whatever, but might have other reasons for it. Yes, people sometimes go too far, and suggest that every bit of difficult behaviour could be autism or something, which can reinforce some lazy stereotypes, but at the same time, the fact that it's even being recognised that some annoying traits could be something other than just generally being an arsehole might be seen as progress in some ways. So I see both advantages and disadvantages.

@burgundyblues In just the same way as not every man with a dislike of prostitutes is Peter Sutcliffe, not every autistic male is an arsehole. Would a Venn diagram help?

My DH - autistic as they come - has precisely none of the attributes you so confidently describe as “standard”. My son - also autistic and diagnosed age 3 has some of them, but so does every other 6 year old I know because, well, 6 year olds are twats sometimes. I was and - quelle horreur - I’m neurotypical.

I’m sorry you’re having to go to such fantastic lengths to justify the fact that you married a horrible man. There are loads of them about. Most are NT.

You are in no position to diagnose anyone either way and your experiences proves fuck all about anyone else’s.

Perhaps so - that’s not something I’ve considered but will think about carefully.

Unless Burgundy lives with you, I don't know how you can accuse them of saying you're crap to be around