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Original poster

How to discuss BBC 100 women list?

232 replies

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 07/12/2021 07:53

Hello

I've seen two threads attempting to discuss this list deleted today. Could you possibly give guidance about how the feminist issue of men taking the place of women in a list of women can be discussed on the feminism board without the thread being deleted?

OP posts:
Original poster
BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 07/12/2021 12:01

Our intention is to create a space for civil and constructive conversation

A person who wants to force others to pretend they can’t tell what sex that person is, is neither civil nor constructive

Why are you enabling delusional and controlling behavior?

OP posts:
SolasAnla · 07/12/2021 11:57

Words have meanings.
Civil:

  1. relating to ordinary citizens and their concerns, as distinct from military or ecclesiastical matters.
  2. courteous and polite.

Civil and constructive conversation provided the participants pretend that the words used in the discussion have not been skewed for political expediency.

What's the difference between
100 of 3,900,000,000
Or
100 of 7,800,000,000

When an aim of an ideology is to impose a change of meaning on everyday words, what is civil about forcing one party to concede to the other party's political ideology?

The revision of language, using gender as a "civilised" word for sex to gender being an emotional knowledge which supersedes biology, is the conversation.

The push to change language is "be inclusive", "be kind", "be civil" because changing a word really has no consequence.
Right?

Why not make small changes
Like
transwoman and women
becomes
trans women and women
becomes
trans women and cis women

Why not agree that trans women are women?
Is it because they feel it in their brain?
Is it because their lived experience as a woman must be more important than their sex?
What's the problem with any of that?

Why not agree that trans men are men?
Is it because they feel it in their brain?
Is it because their lived experience as a man must be more important than their sex?
What's the problem with any of that?

When the politics of words is being discussed imposing the meaning of one political ideology on the whole discussion is not "civil".
Civil society is based within written laws, words used in these laws have to have meaning.
If the word woman is changed to "adult human male or female" women with vulva not people with penis will be the ultimate losers in the social change

Original poster
BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 07/12/2021 11:53

But the core issue of course is that men who identify as women are not women

They do not suffer from the disadvantages and discrimination women face because of our female bodies

If you’re going to censor women for pointing out that men are men, it prevents them from clearly making their point

OP posts:
Shedmistress · 07/12/2021 11:53

How is it civil for women to not be able to identify men exactly? I genuinely don't understand why we all have to pretend that what we are seeing is the opposite to what we are seeing?

MNHQ
MichaelMumsnet · 07/12/2021 11:50

In hosting these discussions we want to encourage civil debate - the Maya Forstater case established a protected belief, but is also concerned with the expression of that belief. We feel that our guidelines cover this and that it's possible to make pretty much any gender critical point whilst keeping the conversation constructive and civil.

catzwhiskas · 07/12/2021 11:27

Franca the other question of course is why are they disregarding the ruling?

Franca123 · 07/12/2021 11:24

Do you censor Christians for saying that Jesus Christ was the one and only Messiah?

Franca123 · 07/12/2021 11:22

MNHQ. Can I ask how your talk guidelines have changed since the Maya Forester case? Which ruled that our 'beliefs' are protected? Have you decided to disregard this ruling?

Redshoeblueshoe · 07/12/2021 10:50

Wow well I think we all know which posters will be delighted.

Franca123 · 07/12/2021 10:49

Sex is a protected characteristic. I am allowed to talk about sex. I will not be told that that is not allowed. I am a fully grown adult and a citizen in a free country. Sex exists. It can not be changed. End of.

catzwhiskas · 07/12/2021 10:47

We know , you, MN know, they know. What is the agenda of pretence we are supposed to subscribe to?

MNHQ
MichaelMumsnet · 07/12/2021 10:45

Our intention is to create a space for civil and constructive conversation - the guidelines outline our moderation approach.

Franca123 · 07/12/2021 10:43

I think we're about 3 years away from men deciding that women..... sorry cis women, aren't fully human. I wonder at that point whether we'll be allowed to identify as men? Because they're not allowed to do that in Afghanistan. You have to wonder what the point of mumsnet is if it's not about women.

mistermagpie · 07/12/2021 10:36

I can't keep up. So now 'transwomen' are 'women' and women who identify as women are 'cis women'?! And we've all got to play along with this at the risk of offending, let's face it, men?

whitehorsesdonotlie · 07/12/2021 10:35

Which winners are trans women?

Original poster
BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 07/12/2021 10:33

When people are discussing how enlightenment values and free speech were reasserted and the religious belief that humans can change sex become the niche, green ink view it deserves to be, don’t forget this.

The debate happened here in spite of MNHQ, not because of them

OP posts:
Franca123 · 07/12/2021 10:24

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Being biologically male isn't something to do with "identity" that you can "explicitly reject", it's a scientific reality, and it has a meaning and repercussions.
Not to mumnet it's not. They've constructed an alternate reality and now they're censoring women who won't play along.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/12/2021 10:23

Being biologically male isn't something to do with "identity" that you can "explicitly reject", it's a scientific reality, and it has a meaning and repercussions.

Franca123 · 07/12/2021 10:20

I'm not going to sit by like some good little woman while men tell me what to do.

Pinknelly · 07/12/2021 10:19

There really are two options. You are a woman or a man. And transwoman aren’t woman. And I for one are refusing to go along with the nonsense that they are.

Franca123 · 07/12/2021 10:19

Complete joke. This is not a free country anymore if you're a woman. I'm being prevented from standing up for my rights as a woman. I'm being told to shut up while men take them away. Thanks mumsnet.

Pinknelly · 07/12/2021 10:18

So what are transwomen then? Because if you aren’t a woman you are a …?

Eyesofdisarray · 07/12/2021 10:18

Belief or biological fact???
Why delete for mentioning " natal" sex? Good grief Big Brother...

Pinknelly · 07/12/2021 10:17

Ffs

Pinknelly · 07/12/2021 10:17

Well said Franca