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How to discuss BBC 100 women list?

232 replies

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 07/12/2021 07:53

Hello

I've seen two threads attempting to discuss this list deleted today. Could you possibly give guidance about how the feminist issue of men taking the place of women in a list of women can be discussed on the feminism board without the thread being deleted?

OP posts:
Franca123 · 07/12/2021 14:33

Why has the latest thread on this topic been deleted? And why did it take so long for it to be deleted?

Waitwhat23 · 07/12/2021 13:49

@MichaelMumsnet Can I ask why the link to the talk guidelines titled Sex and Gender Talk Guidelines still reads as 'trans rights moderation policy'.? Many women on this board (including myself) would argue that what we are discussing here is women's rights. To call it 'trans rights policy', it comea across as a deliberate position taken by HNHQ on the issue. Link here - www.mumsnet.com/i/trans-rights-moderation-policy

In addition, I have mentioned to many mods over the last few months that the wording in the talk guidelines which reads -

• We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive towards trans people. We believe there are ways to express both opinion and facts without crossing this line.

Comes across as derogatory or aggressive attacks against feminist/GC feminists being allowed. For parity, it should surely read - 'We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive. We believe there are ways to express both opinion and facts without crossing this line.'

A mod sometime ago said these would be discussed by the team but I've heard nothing more on the boards. Can you please advise when these concerns are likely to be corrected?

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 07/12/2021 13:32

@MichaelMumsnet

In hosting these discussions we want to encourage civil debate - the Maya Forstater case established a protected belief, but is also concerned with the expression of that belief. We feel that our guidelines cover this and that it's possible to make pretty much any gender critical point whilst keeping the conversation constructive and civil.
Is there any likelihood of that being revisited in light of the continued and increasing linguistic gymnastics being demanded of us all?

It is obviously not possible to make any GC comment and to be civil and constructive as, sometimes, it is the very logic, constructiveness, of the point being made that earns a deletion.

Not to mention the unpalateable thoughts about just who it is that is monitoring such threads and spending their time reporting specific posts. That remains by far the most agregious act of incivility, changes the nature of most threads it occurs on and so prevents constructive conversation completely!

It feels like we don't have a level playing field with known boundaries. More like a space with invisible traps and ever changing, differently interpreted rules.

Franca123 · 07/12/2021 13:29

Thank you @Datun

I think this is a really important point and that MNHQ need to take a review of their policy here. They have provided a great forum for gender critical discussion and women's rights. Maybe there is room for going further given recent develops such as those previously mentioned in the thread. Thanks.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/12/2021 13:24

The Law Commission highlighted that the rulings in Miller and Forstater have now made it clear that the expression of “gender critical” views is protected under human rights laws. The issue, therefore, is not whether such expression should be protected, it is whether the stirring-up offences would require a provision to make clear it is protected.”

It concluded that it would

The law commission is going further than protecting the belief of gender critical women, they are allowing it to be expressed freely. This is because transactivists have decided that you can hold a belief, but you can't express it.

The law commission is saying that is simply not the case. They are going out of their way to say so.

That's encouraging.

Datun · 07/12/2021 13:21

HQ, The law commission are currently involved in this very issue. What we can and what we cannot say. They have concluded

We do not agree with GIRES that such discussion necessarily amounts to ‘vilification’ or ‘dehumanises’ trans people, still less that it encourages others to do so. Indeed, we think that characterising it as GIRES does demonstrates the risk that without explicit protection, such discourse – which has been recognised as protected speech – risks being perceived, reported, and potentially investigated as hate speech.”

They're saying that normal discourse needs to be protected because if it isn't, it will be deliberately misrepresented. They are using GIRES attempt to do so as an example.

I believe you have every right to allow women to use the word men, when they are discussing women's rights being taken over by them.

Take a look at what the law commission are saying. They are fully alive to the fact that women are being silenced on the basis of using language that some people don't like.

Letting women talk freely about this means you have the law on your side.

Correct terms and language cannot be deemed uncivil on the basis that some people don't like them.

The Law Commission highlighted that the rulings in Miller and Forstater have now made it clear that the expression of “gender critical” views is protected under human rights laws. The issue, therefore, is not whether such expression should be protected, it is whether the stirring-up offences would require a provision to make clear it is protected.”

It concluded that it would

The law commission is going further than protecting the belief of gender critical women, they are allowing it to be expressed freely. This is because transactivists have decided that you can hold a belief, but you can't express it.

The law commission is saying that is simply not the case. They are going out of their way to say so.

sex-matters.org/posts/the-legal-system/law-commission-recommends-protection-for-gender-critical-views-from-chilling-effect/

Franca123 · 07/12/2021 13:21

This is all quite funny despite it being so serious. I have figured out what was wrong with this thread title. But I presume I musn't say what is wrong with it because that'll mean I get deleted too. It's hilarious! Why would anyone be offended by this? How is it not civil? How is it not constructive?! How do people handle everyday life if they're so offended by this type of thing. I really think MNHQ would benefit from getting their copies of 1984 off the bookshelves, dusting it off and sitting down to re-read.

MichaelMumsnet · 07/12/2021 13:08

@CousinKrispy Yes, we're likely to delete the thread if the title breaks guidelines but we're fine to discuss potentially reinstating threads with title edits - and where the OP can agree on a rewording.

In this case, another thread was started immediately, followed by a third (with a title that didn't break TGs).

CousinKrispy · 07/12/2021 12:58

I think it's very unreasonable for an entire thread to be deleted if it's simply the wording of the title that is potentially problematic.

@MNHQ you said it "would be an option" to re-word the title instead of deleting the thread in the future. Does that mean you'll actually make a good-faith effort to do that? Don't mean to sound picky, I'm just saying that the statement "sure, that would be an option" could just as easily be followed up with "....but not one that the mods will follow if they don't feel like it" which concerns me.

Civil debate includes treating posters with enough respect to say "this thread is fine but the title just needs rewording, thanks" rather than instant deletion.

SpringCrocus · 07/12/2021 12:46

I can't believe what I'm reading. 🙄🙁

Shedmistress · 07/12/2021 12:40

I don't understand how the rules work?

Bless you.

The first rule of Fight Club...need I go on?

Negligee · 07/12/2021 12:37

@oxalisRed

I didn't see either thread.

But from this discussion, MNHQ and @MichaelMumsnet, what a joke. You demean your female audience, the people paying for your existence, as well as yourselves by tiptoeing and kowtowing to people peddling gender ideology.

You help maintain the very system of patriarchy that oppress women - the ones who don't need to identify as such. Give yourself a pat on the back.

Hear hear, @oxalisRed. MNHQ, you should take a long hard look at yourselves, and think about what the actual thought processes are that underlie these mealy-mouthed requests for 'civility'. Let me give you a clue -- you are perpetuating a hierarchy with women at the bottom.
Franca123 · 07/12/2021 12:35

Can I not just make it #nodebate on women being XX chromosomes only? I don't understand how the rules work? If I set up an organisation and get loads of government funding, do i get to redefine what is civil and constructive? Or do I have to be a man to do that?

Clymene · 07/12/2021 12:31

I opened that thread first thing. It didn't strike me as uncivil until it was deleted for being so.

Shedmistress · 07/12/2021 12:24

Phew, I need a law degree to read this thread.

I don't know what is confusing everyone.

Just don't mention it but don't not mention it because then you will be accused of not mentioning it.

But if you mention it you aren't allowed to actually mention it.

OK?

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 07/12/2021 12:23

Language is supposed to help convey messages

When you want to compel people to behave as if they believe nonsense, clarity is not your friend

Losing your shit when people use standard, clear words is the way to go

As I’ve said, what’s mysterious to me is why MNHQ are enabling such behavior

OP posts:
JayAlfredPrufrock · 07/12/2021 12:19

Still fucking Spartacus

Barbarantia · 07/12/2021 12:17

Phew, I need a law degree to read this thread.
I honestly started out knowing that someone may have used a potentially unsuitable word in a title.
But it seems the word may either have been man or male or even transwoman or something of the sort?

Am I to believe that the word man or male or even transwoman is now also being self-censored?

I am so confused but honestly not being able to speak clearly did make this very hard to follow and maybe peaks more people than the actual deleted threads.

Language is supposed to help convey messages but this seems like making sure ideas are drowned in words to stop discussion.

Franca123 · 07/12/2021 12:14

Some beliefs are more protected than others it seems. I would like to understand the criteria under which mumsnet decides the hierarchy. Is it men at the top and cis women at the bottom?

Franca123 · 07/12/2021 12:12

What's the next civil and constructive thing we allow men to make us concur with? That cis women are worth half a man?

MatildaIThink · 07/12/2021 12:09

Do you censor Jews for saying that Jesus was not the messiah?

What about Brian?

2319inprogress · 07/12/2021 12:07

Does this mean we can say;
There are 3 transwomen on that list.
Transwomen are men.

But cannot say;
There are 3 men on that list.

?

SpindlesWinterWhorl · 07/12/2021 12:05

I don't really understand what I'm being told here.

PikesPeaked · 07/12/2021 12:05

@Franca123

Do you censor Christians for saying that Jesus Christ was the one and only Messiah?
Do you censor Jews for saying that Jesus was not the messiah?
oxalisRed · 07/12/2021 12:03

I didn't see either thread.

But from this discussion, MNHQ and @MichaelMumsnet, what a joke. You demean your female audience, the people paying for your existence, as well as yourselves by tiptoeing and kowtowing to people peddling gender ideology.

You help maintain the very system of patriarchy that oppress women - the ones who don't need to identify as such. Give yourself a pat on the back.