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Original poster

Any chance of a review of the FWR moderation rules in light of Maya Forstater's success in court please?

915 replies

ViperAtTheGatesOfDawn · 10/06/2021 13:02

The belief that transwomen are men and that transmen are women has been accepted as a legitimate and protected belief, yet we are not able to state this on Mumsnet under the current rules.

It has become increasingly difficult to discuss feminist issues on the dedicated feminism boards as a result of the moderation rules.

In light of Maya's success in court, and that 'gender critical' beliefs are considered protected under the Equality Act, would it be possible for the FWR sex/gender mod rules to be re-visited please?

OP posts:
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BearPie · 15/06/2021 21:10

Sex debate?

That’s the name of the board?

What debate? There is no debate; only scientific fact.

Confused
RedToothBrush · 15/06/2021 21:10

So instead of using being scared they will trip up using the wrong language, they are now going to be scared they are posting in the wrong topic and will be sanctioned for that?

Is that right?

And in reality policing what you can post where is going to be a massive headache and you can't talk about the elephant in the room in the wrong section if it does happen to be relevant to the direction of the chat.

Ok.

33feethighandrising · 15/06/2021 20:50

I genuinely don't get it on any level. It would be less of a kick in the teeth, plus better for new and existing users (who have hidden the existing one apparently) to create a new board called "Feminism chat (no trans discussions)" and go that way.

It makes zero sense to censor discussion on one of the most active boards on the site. (Are we the most active after AIBU? I think maybe so?)

If people want a new board where they can discuss feminist issues minus sex and gender then they need to make a new board, not us.

Anything else is bonkers.

belleager · 15/06/2021 20:33

If threads aren't moved or deleted without very strong cause, it could make sense.

Feminism, sex and gender - start a thread about Stonewall, court cases, schools diversity training, pronouns etc
Feminism chat - start a thread about pay gap, sex work, domestic violence

Introduce themes of sex, gender, self-identifying etc wherever relevant, on either board - thread doesn't move. That would be okay. Is that what's planned?

If they were creating a new space specifically not to include a GC perspective, that would be harder to define and police. If it's as above - seems okay and I can see why the more specialist forum is the new space.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 15/06/2021 20:30

I think part of MNHQs problem is that genuinely the majority of site users don't believe humans can change sex. Polls in AIBU are pretty conclusive.

you can't change the overall views of site users. All you can do it get them to shutupshutupshutup about it. But I don't know how well that will work

OhHolyJesus · 15/06/2021 20:28

Can I ask @MNHQ as the OP was about talk guidelines that apply to the feminist chat board and with the decision to split the board being made clear, will the talk guidelines be amended, and whether they are amended or not will they be applied to both the existing board and the new board? Or just one board? I'm confused.

I'm not clear as to whether the OP's question has been answered and what words or phrases will be allowed or not.

Floisme · 15/06/2021 20:15

@Vanishun

I think this feels like a kick in the teeth because it's the TRA movement all over again.

"Transwomen are women, we claim this womens space as mixed sex space. You lot go over there if you don't like it."

And now it's happening to the Feminism chat board too.

I genuinely don't get it on any level. It would be less of a kick in the teeth, plus better for new and existing users (who have hidden the existing one apparently) to create a new board called "Feminism chat (no trans discussions)" and go that way.

That was my reaction too, however I assume from the proposed name that all posts relating to trans/women's rights will belong in Sex and Gender, so if anyone really does believe they've talked MNHQ into setting up a TWAW board they might be in for a surprise.

I foresee the same old same old on the new board and, as for the new one.... well I guess we'll see.

OvaHere · 15/06/2021 20:11

Well I'd be interested in all aspects of that. Obviously defining what we're talking about is key for any data analysis but that's not the only thing to discus.

I did a search and found a 12 page thread from 2019 that didn't really bring gender identity up at all so clearly those threads can happen in FWR as it is.

Sophoclesthefox · 15/06/2021 20:09

@OvaHere

Those who are in favour, could you please give me some examples to help me understand? What would you go and post about right now if this new board existed?

Obviously I'm not in favour but somebody explained the other day they would like to be able to discuss the gender pay gap and associated stats in depth but didn't want to talk about the baseline data being corrupted by self identified gender because that becomes the dominant theme.

Personally I don't see the point of putting the effort in if the data can't be guaranteed but each to their own I guess.

Hmmm. Yes, I’ve just been given that same example on another thread.

Great, then! Let’s have that thread, uncorrupted by the sex or gender question. I’m not sure that this new board is going to be jumping, though, that topic won’t sustain a whole sub board. But happy to be proven wrong.

CardinalLolzy · 15/06/2021 19:58

@OvaHere

Those who are in favour, could you please give me some examples to help me understand? What would you go and post about right now if this new board existed?

Obviously I'm not in favour but somebody explained the other day they would like to be able to discuss the gender pay gap and associated stats in depth but didn't want to talk about the baseline data being corrupted by self identified gender because that becomes the dominant theme.

Personally I don't see the point of putting the effort in if the data can't be guaranteed but each to their own I guess.

Well I'd be interested in all aspects of that. Obviously defining what we're talking about is key for any data analysis but that's not the only thing to discuss.
Vanishun · 15/06/2021 19:54

It's also not a gender pay gap, it's a sex pay gap. It doesn't matter how butch or feminine the person is. But again some people don't care about that either.

OvaHere · 15/06/2021 19:51

Those who are in favour, could you please give me some examples to help me understand? What would you go and post about right now if this new board existed?

Obviously I'm not in favour but somebody explained the other day they would like to be able to discuss the gender pay gap and associated stats in depth but didn't want to talk about the baseline data being corrupted by self identified gender because that becomes the dominant theme.

Personally I don't see the point of putting the effort in if the data can't be guaranteed but each to their own I guess.

Vanishun · 15/06/2021 19:51

I think this feels like a kick in the teeth because it's the TRA movement all over again.

"Transwomen are women, we claim this womens space as mixed sex space. You lot go over there if you don't like it."

And now it's happening to the Feminism chat board too.

I genuinely don't get it on any level. It would be less of a kick in the teeth, plus better for new and existing users (who have hidden the existing one apparently) to create a new board called "Feminism chat (no trans discussions)" and go that way.

Datun · 15/06/2021 19:49

But my main question is if you post something unrelated to gender ideology on the feminism chat board, does that mean you can't then say something if it's relevant to gender ideology?

AmIPeriOrAreYouJustAnnoying · 15/06/2021 19:48

Might I suggest that the people who dislike/are so uninterested in Feminism to the extent they've hidden it - so can't even see the threads and scroll past- might not be the most appropriate people to have the overall say in how the Feminism board is run?

Absolutely! @CardinalLolzy 🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏾‍♀️

Campervan69 · 15/06/2021 19:48

Agreed. Do we have a response yet?

Datun · 15/06/2021 19:47

*come to mean

Datun · 15/06/2021 19:44

Intersectional has come to something different, which I think is a useful distinction.

AnyOldPrion · 15/06/2021 19:44

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Any trolls will certainly follow us over to the new FWR.
I rather wish it was actually a “gender critical feminism” board so that trolls could be very quickly identified and moved. But no wonder Justine doesn’t want to frame it that way. Likely the back and forth is, in part, what drives the discussion. Fraught boards with polarised opinions (like AIBU) tend to be popular.
BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 15/06/2021 19:43

Surely it will just mean that the sex/gender board becomes the reincarnation of feminism chat, which was the reincarnation of FWR?

i don't think so

there are loads of threads on FWR that are nothing to do with genderism and will therefore belong on the 'good feminists' board. i just think it will split the traffic, so overall there will be far less interaction and less chat about feminism altogether on mumsnet.

it's sad

AmIPeriOrAreYouJustAnnoying · 15/06/2021 19:43

Was there a response to the op from MNHQ?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/06/2021 19:43

From what I’ve seen of it (a limited sample, I’m sure), the people who don’t think they can discuss feminism in feminist chat don’t actually want to talk about feminism in any meaningful sense.

From what I've seen, they simply don't want us to talk about feminism how and about what we want to, rather than talk about feminism themselves. But maybe o will be pleasantly surprised.

Sophoclesthefox · 15/06/2021 19:41

@Ereshkigalangcleg

think feminism can be intersectional while also being gender critical so I’m not keen on that divide. Perhaps there is a thread already discussing this though? I don’t want to derail this one.

Same here. I also think that "intersectional" feminism which doesn't recognise being born female as an axis of oppression separate from gender identity is nothing of the sort.

Yes.

From what I’ve seen of it (a limited sample, I’m sure), the people who don’t think they can discuss feminism in feminist chat don’t actually want to talk about feminism in any meaningful sense. I honestly don’t know what topics they want to discuss.

Those who are in favour, could you please give me some examples to help me understand? What would you go and post about right now if this new board existed?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/06/2021 19:40

Sorry Quaagars, unfortunate x post.

SimonedeBeauvoirscat · 15/06/2021 19:40

@Ereshkigalangcleg exactly. Intersectionalism done properly is really important. But it’s not a stick to beat the nasty wimminz up with.