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Any chance of a review of the FWR moderation rules in light of Maya Forstater's success in court please?

915 replies

ViperAtTheGatesOfDawn · 10/06/2021 13:02

The belief that transwomen are men and that transmen are women has been accepted as a legitimate and protected belief, yet we are not able to state this on Mumsnet under the current rules.

It has become increasingly difficult to discuss feminist issues on the dedicated feminism boards as a result of the moderation rules.

In light of Maya's success in court, and that 'gender critical' beliefs are considered protected under the Equality Act, would it be possible for the FWR sex/gender mod rules to be re-visited please?

OP posts:
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MarshaBradyo · 12/06/2021 14:38

@SoapboxFox

I do think that we need to be able to accurately state that transwomen are biologically male where it is relevant to do so.

Transwomen are male. It's a scientific fact and we should be able to say this whenever we like, not just under certain restrictions.

It’s a shame Mnhq saw the request and used it to respond to non FWR complaints

There’s loads of people who want to suppress this discussion. Tough

Really pleased things are changing

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 12/06/2021 14:36

I'm grateful that MN give us some freedom to state the truth on the Trans Widows thread, but it's not extended to when we post in the rest of the board.

OT for this discussion but I'm mindful of the woman who reported that her counsellor warned her on the use of correct pronouns under the aegis 'this is a zero tolerance workplace' - and how this excluded her from the sort of MH support that she needed at this time of need. Even when her marriage partner wasn't in the room, all discussion had to be framed with the partner's view as the default and not her own.

SoapboxFox · 12/06/2021 14:29

I do think that we need to be able to accurately state that transwomen are biologically male where it is relevant to do so.

Transwomen are male. It's a scientific fact and we should be able to say this whenever we like, not just under certain restrictions.

PearPickingPorky · 12/06/2021 14:12

Sorry, that was in response to AnyPrion and others re advertisers.

PearPickingPorky · 12/06/2021 14:11

Well yes, Justin could make the decision to only allow what the people with money, and who control the money, (men), want women to be allowed to talk about.

But that would be moving Mumsnet completely in the opposite direction of what she always claimed Mumsnet was.

Which, of course, she's entitled to do. But at least give women the courtesy of being honest about that. And then acceptingly join the ranks of the enormous list of other women's orgs/services/etc which have also decided to put what men want ahead of what women need.

WhatKatyDidNot · 12/06/2021 14:08

Appeasing advertisers who are pressuring the providers of a service into discriminatory treatment of people with a protected belief, is not a defence in court if providers go on to treat people with a protected belief in a discriminatory way.

Shocked anyone would think it could be.

Just popping back in to say that I was contacted overnight. There are indeed collated receipts of sanctions and suspensions imposed on GC feminists, together with records of staff communications, going back to when the initial limits on feminist speech with regard to transgender ideology were imposed. Of the little I've seen, some is quite shocking.

Perhaps not the best idea to be so rude or to suggest further unequal treatment in response to OP's perfectly polite question?

Just a thought.

AnyOldPrion · 12/06/2021 13:51

@lightand

And it wouldnt be no users, it would, and probably is, less feminist ones. Site still carries on, and looking at in from MN point of view, they may prefer less feminists[still leaves thousands of other posters]. Not saying for sure MN want less feminists, but looks like it would give them less hassle. And maybe more revenue, as more advertisers interested?? Not saying their stance is right, but look at it from their point of view.
Had Justine come on the thread and explained that:

For business reasons related to advertising (and potentially related to legal challenges from individuals) they had to persist with the rules as they stood right now.

That they would continue to monitor the ongoing situation.

And that please, could we stop asking for a while because currently this was what they could offer...

Then this whole thread would have been understanding (if frustrated) regarding the situation.

Instead, asked after a major shift in the legal situation, having been asked whether they would consider changing the rules and/or the way they are applied, given they are currently not equally restrained for both sides of the debate, there was a very contentious announcement that all those users who currently frequent the feminist chat board most often were likely to be shifted into another area to make way for the (relatively few) posters who have been requesting that the feminist board should be kept clear of the women’s rights debate around trans lobbying.

In addition, a passive aggressive suggestion was made that we are problematic and want to insult people.

It seems an aggressive and unhelpful stance.

MrsBongiovi · 12/06/2021 13:33

Threads devoted to named individuals to unpick their gender presentation, appearance, lifestyle or personal choices constitute a personal attack, so we will continue to delete them along with unfair generalisations.

But that’s just not true, is it? You don’t delete threads that do most of those things, only ones to do with gender. One particular Brooklyn Beckham thread comes to mind. There were some awful posts commenting on his appearance and lifestyle, it was absolutely a personal attack on a very young man....guess what... not deleted. But he seems to have been born male and presents as male...so that’s ok. You allow it to stand despite reports.
I’m sick of the lies and bullshit.

Datun · 12/06/2021 13:13

When the co-op said they were going to launch an internal investigation into their advertising policy, over the fact that they thought the spectator was transphobic, Andrew Neill said:

Andrew Neil
@afneil
·
Sep 4, 2020
No need to bother, Co-op. As of today you are henceforth banned from advertising in The Spectator, in perpetuity. We will not have companies like yours use their financial might to try to influence our editorial content, which is entirely a matter for the editor."

The coop issued a grovelling apology. Of course. The threat of never being able to advertise again, was too much.

And they were right.

And that was before the entire country could even see the current Zeitgeist looming.

NotBadConsidering · 12/06/2021 12:57

Threads devoted to named individuals to unpick their gender presentation, appearance, lifestyle or personal choices constitute a personal attack, so we will continue to delete them along with unfair generalisations.

Why are people, famous people, allowed to go on major news and media outlets, like the Guardian, the BBC, Oprah etc, talk about themselves, their gender presentation, appearance, lifestyle and personal choices publicly, presumably to try and influence public opinion on the topic of gender for their own benefit and the benefit of those who also believe such ideology (why else talk about it publicly?), but often to the detriment of women’s rights and with a negative influence on the health and wellbeing of children (for example, repeating the lie “children will die”), and do so without scrutiny or rebuttal?

And why, with organisations leaving Stonewall in droves, and with the amount of women who can now speak up turning from a trickle to a flood, would you not stick it out with respect to difficulties with advertisers, given how likely it is they will all be seeing which way the wind is blowing? Won’t you be embarrassed in a few years because you were complicit in appeasing advertisers who threatened to withdraw money because you wouldn’t comply with their request to silence discussion further? Any advertiser who doesn’t see the value on offer here is crazy. I have never understood that rationale, to turn down the millions of unique users here to appease a smaller number elsewhere. The logic of that argument has never made sense to me.

As I posted elsewhere, you have the opportunity to place yourself in history as the place that hosted the discussion that helped facilitate change - actual legal changes - that will be remembered for decades to come. Instead you want to take that place in history and piss it away to keep margarine makers happy today, who will have no qualms in changing their own advertising strategy when they realise they’ve backed the wrong horse. Bonkers.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 12/06/2021 12:06

@MrsBongiovi

It would be nice to think that the creators of a parenting website, used mainly by women and mothers would have some principles around protecting women and children. Seemingly not though, money talks, and the people with money are getting richer and that’s what counts after all. Cheers Justine.
This is what I'm most uncomfortable with. I don't doubt that it's been really difficult, REALLY difficult. I'm grateful that we've been allowed this space, but we shouldn't have to feel grateful that women can talk about their rights and children's rights and attempts to change the law that would have a huge impact on those rights, or the biological realities of being a woman. If the initial impetus behind the site was to give women a place to talk about the things they couldn't discuss or share elsewhere then it's moved some way away from the original mission.
lightand · 12/06/2021 11:57

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats Good point

TheShadowyFeminist · 12/06/2021 11:56

@lightand

No advertisers, no site.
Advertisers chose MN because of the users. The USP of this site comes from the fact it's a predominantly female space & companies want their custom.

The traffic that FWR draws is significant, even if that's inconvenient for Justine, MN or those who have a problem with women with opinions, expressing those opinions, in FWR.

At the end of the day, it's a very odd decision to make, after maintaining the space for women to have a discussion (albeit significantly censored ones) to then decide to censor it further.

Getting back to the original point - it's a reasonable request for moderation rules to be reviewed in light of the judgement. Diverting discussion to the dead cat of trying to separate FWR from discussions on how sex & gender are distinct instead isn't really 'in the spirit' IMO.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 12/06/2021 11:55

@lightand

No advertisers, no site.
Well yes, and same old patriarchy dictating what women can and can't say.
OvaHere · 12/06/2021 11:50

@lightand

And it wouldnt be no users, it would, and probably is, less feminist ones. Site still carries on, and looking at in from MN point of view, they may prefer less feminists[still leaves thousands of other posters]. Not saying for sure MN want less feminists, but looks like it would give them less hassle. And maybe more revenue, as more advertisers interested?? Not saying their stance is right, but look at it from their point of view.
There's a difference between Feminists i.e those who would call themselves that and are committed to it as a cause, and discussions that are broadly feminist in nature.

You can get rid of the former to some extent but not the latter, especially on a forum for women. The majority of women on FWR and the wider forum are not actively feminist, for example, in the way Julie Bindel is.

Regardless they aren't going to suddenly stop talking about biological reality. Even without a Feminist section women will still notice what is happening around us. Every time a public figure says something like "mother is an outdated term we should use birthing bodies instead" women will take note and we will talk about it. You don't have to call yourself a feminist to have an opinion.

In short, these discussions aren't going away. You can try and ban all talk about it by being incredibly censorious but a site that's for woman and mothers will always have biology at it's core so by shutting down all dissent you risk destroying your USP.

MrsBongiovi · 12/06/2021 11:45

It would be nice to think that the creators of a parenting website, used mainly by women and mothers would have some principles around protecting women and children. Seemingly not though, money talks, and the people with money are getting richer and that’s what counts after all. Cheers Justine.

lightand · 12/06/2021 11:31

And it wouldnt be no users, it would, and probably is, less feminist ones.
Site still carries on, and looking at in from MN point of view, they may prefer less feminists[still leaves thousands of other posters]. Not saying for sure MN want less feminists, but looks like it would give them less hassle. And maybe more revenue, as more advertisers interested??
Not saying their stance is right, but look at it from their point of view.

lightand · 12/06/2021 11:27

No advertisers, no site.

AnyOldPrion · 12/06/2021 11:25

MN users always seem to think that they are at the center of everything. While they are considered, they are not at the centre. Advertisers are.

No users, no advertisers.

lightand · 12/06/2021 11:20

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

There's 2 things here aren't there
  1. the original request to MNHQ to rethink the censorship women experience here when they want to talk about the facts of male people using spaces and provisions set aside for women.

  2. Justine's suggestion of somehow hiving off discussions around sex and gender into a separate board

I'm interested in 2, but let's not lose sight of 1, I'm not sure MNHQ have addressed that really.

I havent read all the posts after this one, but I think most people have missed the point. For years actually.

Justine said the issue in her second post.

The issue is advertisers.

MN users always seem to think that they are at the center of everything. While they are considered, they are not at the centre. Advertisers are.

OvaHere · 12/06/2021 11:14

@AnyOldPrion

Maybe it would be best to avoid "Transwomen are men" unless in response to someone asserting that "transwomen are women" but I do think that we need to be able to accurately state that transwomen are biologically male where it is relevant to do so.

For me it comes down to the difference in treatment between the two groups. That difference starkly represents the inequality in the way the rules are currently applied.

If it comes down to “transwomen are men” is offensive and potentially off-putting to posters, then I would say I personally feel the regular repetition of the phrase “transwomen are women” is equally offensive, especially if we are not able to respond with our belief (aka fact) that they are men.

I have had to take breaks from the board because the offensiveness of that repetition and other similar “arguments” becomes so unpleasant. And of course those with the belief that “transwomen are women” have hundreds of other places they can post on the internet, if they feel the conversation in FWR is too robust. FWR is only welcoming to tough minded women, even if they are gender critical. I found that out quite quickly.

I feel there is far more tolerance extended towards “not in the spirit” posts from transactivist posters than towards women, in my opinion, but that is difficult to quantify. But the inequality is 100% clear when you look at the difference in tolerance to these two opposing statements. It absolutely demonstrates how one group are credited with being super-sensitive, while the other is expected to show patience and tolerance in the face of something that is, at the very least, deeply frustrating, at worst, a genuine challenge to women’s mental health.

Case in point, this thread that was taken down (for reasons I can't now recall). It was eventually reinstated after complaints but it's telling it was considered unacceptable in the first instance.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3430141-Womens-mental-health-is-being-damaged-by-our-forced-extinction

WarriorN · 12/06/2021 11:14

Extremely good point Tinsel.

TinselAngel · 12/06/2021 11:11

I have been thinking about this. As a trans widow, in the light of the judgement why should I be forced to speak as if I believe that men like my ex have changed sex?

I'm grateful that MN give us some freedom to state the truth on the Trans Widows thread, but it's not extended to when we post in the rest of the board.

AnyOldPrion · 12/06/2021 11:06

I still don't understand why the feelings of lesbians on this mantra aren't valid when it (for some) leads to pressure to accept a self-categorised male lesbian as a partner.

Equally for trans widows.

@JustineMumsnet can you really not see the inequality?

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 12/06/2021 11:04

@SirSamuelVimes

Very well put, Prion. Why are my feelings of hurt and frustration in response to "TWAW" not valid or of value, yet the emotional reaction of others to "TWAM" is sufficiently important that the world must be rewritten?
I still don't understand why the feelings of lesbians on this mantra aren't valid when it (for some) leads to pressure to accept a self-categorised male lesbian as a partner.
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