Policy on under the radar racism

Bohemian, can you explain how being Irish American works? I understand having Irish ancestors, or an Irish mother/grandmother. If it's several generations back, what marks someone as Irish American? Are their cultural differences beyond celebrating St Patrick's day?

I ask because I'm Welsh. My parents barely acknowledged being Welsh- we're close to a border and there were times it was classed as 'Monmouthshire', neither England nor Wales.

Im married to an Englishman, have lived in England since I was 18, my kids would never consider themselves welsh in any way. Wouldn't even root for Wales in a sports match. Rude.

Of course people sometimes got along on a personal level, just like today people of diverse backgrounds often get along, it doesn't mean racism doesn't exist.

And of course there are Irish parts of the US, by that I mean areas with a significant Irish-American population that is very obvious in everyday life. We had a long thread about this recently and it's clear many in the UK don't accept that Americans can be 'Irish' but 30 million Irish-Americans would beg to differ.

Actually that thread was rife with the kinds of things the OP is talking about. Lots of, oh those Americans are so stupid, thinking they can be Irish.

And actually regardless of policies and micro aggressions and policing of language and tone, people can still manage to be a dick.

I don't think getting ever more detailed about what is offensive is going to stop people being sneery and patronising.

I agree with a PP, a lot of it is class based, and people need to be more tolerant not less.

As OP has explained, the equality act includes nationality in the definition of racism, it's not just about skin colour.

But as Halloween isnt American, and so disliking it cannot be racist against Americans so that's a moot point, even if you thought disliking Halloween could be construed as racist, which I t can't because Halloween traditions are not representative of a specific culture, nation or ethnicity.

The aitch/Haitch thing is interesting because it's something that has a very specific sectarian meaning in NI/Ireland and a different specific class/snobbery meaning in England. Neither of which are pleasant but again as it's not uniquely cultural or representative of a specific nation (haitch is used commonly in northern England and Australia). I agree it indicates ignorance and small-mindedness to judge people on their pronounciation of a letter, but that's not the same as racism, and conflating these things helps not one.

If a particular cake was hugely divisive in a community, would you expect people around the world to change their cake eating habits as a result?
Say, Welsh cakes with/without currants were hugely divisive in Wales between South and North, or welsh speaking and English speaking, or east and west... Would that mean an Australian would have to be careful about saying whether welshcakes 'should or shouldnt' have currants?

I don't understand how a sensitivity very specific to a region can be taken as microaggression somewhere quite different.

However, this discussion is about racism towards the Irish and the Celtic nations of the uk...[and] Americans

Racism by who?

I don’t think it’s racism so much as middle class arrogance that Our Way Is The Right Way. Dislike of Santa / Halloween is snobbery, but I don’t think it is racism.

I’ve also reported use of ‘moron’ and been told that in the correct context it’s acceptable to use.

if someone suggesting Halloween is an American import is racism that you find distressing and want removed then you are going to have a tough and disappointing time living in a western democracy.

Every year there are numerous posts along the lines of "I hate this vile Halloween thing, stupid American traditions, it's not British". A) it came to the US from Scotland (and Ireland) so has always been celebrated in the UK, people just can't imagine that the whole of the UK isn't the same as their little corner. B) those posts are pretty sneering towards Americans and a longstanding Scottish and Irish cultural event. Again, it comes down to tone, and a willingness to actually engage with and learn from the replies received.

American isn't even a race.

As OP has explained, the equality act includes nationality in the definition of racism, it's not just about skin colour.

As for the Haitch thing I pronounce it that way, but not because of my genetic origins. I wasn't even aware that people thought it had genetic origins. Is there a link to a paper?

The haitch/aitch threads tend to be full of (English, mainly) posters insisting that haitch is wrong. Not just a regional variation, flat out wrong, and that the use of haitch marks someone out as uneducated or uncivilised. Haitch is actually correct in Ireland, so that's factually untrue. In NI it's a shibboleth - very broadly, nationalists/Catholics identify as Irish and say haitch, unionists/Protestants identify as British and say aitch. People will be asked to spell a word containing that letter so their community background can be identified. If you know anything about the history of NI you'll understand why judging anyone on their pronunciation of the letter is viewed as sectarian and pretty damn unpleasant.

Again, understandable that someone with no links to NI might not know that. But the decent response is "gosh, I never knew that, how interesting, I'd best stop judging!" and not continuing to insist haitch is wrong.

If you look at the history of English attitudes toward the Irish, it's not hard to consider these things racist. Throughout the colonial era, the Irish were seen as not quite as 'savage' as Africans but not civilised enough to be proper white Europeans either. There is a lot of eye-opening scholarship on this. It explains a lot about ongoing bigotry today.

I'm not sure most Irish historians would agree with this. Yours is very much an American perspective on historical relations between Irish and English people, who often got along OK and certainly intermarried often. Many English people have some Irish ancestry and vice versa

I come from a very Irish part of the US originally and I've been shocked many times on MN by anti-Irish and ignorant posts. If you said these things there, wow, you'd be getting an earful. I completely agree with you OP.

Or agree that the US has "Irish parts" or that Americans, by nationality and upbringing, can be "Irish"

As for the Haitch thing I pronounce it that way, but not because of my genetic origins. I wasn't even aware that people thought it had genetic origins. Is there a link to a paper?

if someone suggesting Halloween is an American import is racism that you find distressing and want removed then you are going to have a tough and disappointing time living in a western democracy.

American isn't even a race.

I think it's all down to tone. A discussion on what countries or regions use which term can be really interesting. But there is often a sneering tone to some comments. Irish, Scottish and American terms all definitely tend to code as lower class on here, and thus Are Bad. I do think many of the posts stray into racism but I do appreciate that some are hard for mnhq to police as we are of course allowed to have opinions.

Posts that I would've hardly noticed at first do offend me now because of the sheer volume as well as the individual post.

This thread is really interesting. I'm half Irish but grew up in the North of England and definitely rile against the snobbery on these boards...

But I'm not sure that most of your examples are racist since they apply equally (in my experience) to northern English and Irish people.

Having a 'paddy's is clearly racist. But pronouncing H as 'Haitch', celebrating Halloween, and the term Santa are all common throughout the north of England too.

The fact that we are talking about perceived micro aggressions of alleged racism is great though. It means we have agreed that some terms are clearly unacceptable, will get you prosecuted in the real world, and banned for life from here.

Halloween, names for a red clad male home Invader, pronouncing the eighth letter is not the be all and end all. Equally if I've known three people with an Irish or African or outer Mongolian name and they have all been bad'uns am I wrong to state it? Equally if I have known three bad'uns with nice English names an I forbidden to say it?

^ That’s a “no” then OP

We always dressed as witches and went guising.

We had black bin bags and plastic masks that nipped your faces.

And we had hollowed out turnips with a candle in them (my poor mother)

This is part of English culture too.

We've agreed that terms like 'paddy' are different and are usually deleted by MNHQin the way that other racist comments would be. But claiming racism against terms like Santa Claus which are not culturally related to the Celtic nations (though it may be widely used) is just bizarre.

I knew about guising.So from what you say it sounds as if what I dislike about halloween isn't related to what you did. As I said,we did halloween too, not like you exactly,but we did it.
It does feel like longstanding varied British celebrations being altered by drift from America.And that's my culture being altered by the impact of another culture.
Is it racist not to like that? ( I don't like the culture in America around guns either,is that racist?)
It may be age is my problem though,I will text my brother in law ( American south) and ask him what they did at halloween when he was growing up.
I think comments on Haitch/ aitch and Santa/Father Christmas ( along with what you call your grandparents) have a classist basis in some cases.

You want a rule similar to the " no personal attacks" rule,so no saying "Santa/Haitch is horrible" ,but you should still be able to talk about who uses which words and when and where - that is interesting.
I say Father Christmas - I thought that was an age thing,I didn't realise there was a regional variation in what people said,now I do!

What I disagree about is that disliking (even very vigorously) customs and terminology that aren't representative of a culture or nationality is racism under the equality act. Unpleasant and ignorant, yes. A breach of the EA, no.

It's hard for people to understand the concept of micro-aggressions because we are so used to looking at racism from the perspective of the speaker, what their intention is.

If we look at racism from the perspective of people affected by it, it becomes easier to see how constant little comments add up to something more.

I don't personally find anti-Americanism racist as such, more xenophobic and bigoted. But it's still annoying, all the references to 'horrible American term' 'horrible American custom' etc.

People who choose not to do those things or who sneer are doing those things aren't racist. They just like different things