Policy on under the radar racism

The point of this post was that there is an under the radar not overt racism in all the “that name is horrible How would anyone know how to spell it” bit of a twatty attitude in fairness and on reflection also a micro aggression

"I’ve never known a that wasn’t trouble” does this only happen to Irish names? I have a feeling that my son's name comes up on these types of threads at times - it's not Irish (and he's not trouble 😉)

and today’s micro aggressions was that to call Santa Claus Santa was horrible. Is there a context to this? Just sounds like a personal perspective so unless there is something broader than this which is concerning you, it feels like a bit of a reach.

I never knew about the aitch haitch thing. Couldn't give less of a shit how people say it but it's been interesting hearing this background and I'll definitely be mindful of that in future.

About the baby names- I actually hide those threads so wouldn't be aware- are there more Celtic names that get the 'naughty name' response than any other name?

The naughty boy names that leap to my mind aren't Celtic- well there's a Welsh one but it's very specific to a boy I was at school with, rather than a general 'never met a well behaved one'.

Re the spelling, while I can see it's irritating, it's also not that surprising that English speakers fine names which aren't phonetically english hard to spell. My name is hard to spell and people often get it wrong. Not the wrong jane /jayne, but just altogether wrong. Like, say, feebee instead of Phoebe. It's not a Celtic name.

[quote Steroidsandantidepressants]www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a4011985-The-alphabet-and-H?msgid=99652772#99652772[/quote]

@Steroidsandantidepressants
I can't be bothered to scroll through 459 posts if you can't be bothered to at least indicate a date/time where a poster has stated that that the way Irish people speak is wrong and that their enunciation is like nails down a blackboard.

My assumption from scrolling through the first and last 50 or so posts is that no one has said that, as the thread doesn't seem to have escalated in any way, but if I'm wrong and you'd like to indicate the specific post that would be helpful.

Thanks for starting this thread @Steroidsandantidepressants. You are quite right.

Just as an example, I'm thoroughly fed up of challenging the is a 'naughty boy name' comments on Baby Names all the time. It's downright ignorant and very depressing.

why is it ok that the Irish are told that the way they speak and enunciate letters is wrong and offensive and like nails down a blackboard?

Where has someone actually posted that the way Irish people speak is wrong and that their enunciation is like nails down a blackboard?

Or have you just extrapolated that from someone saying the haitch pronunciation is like nails down a blackboard and added your own dose of nationalistic generalisation to suit your own agenda?

None of the examples you've given (with the exception of 'having a paddy' which has already been addressed) represents a culture, ethnicity or national group. None of these are examples of racism. It's simply people expressing a personal preference which is different to yours. You're perfectly within your rights to say that the term Father Christmas is horrible. That's not racism either. It's a disagreement.

Yes personal preferences maybe be expressed in an unpleasant, aggressive, ignorant or small minded ways. None of us like that, but that doesn't make them racist and persisting in trying to tar people who think differently to you as racist because they don't like the term 'Santa Claus' makes you look frankly ridiculous, and guilty of trying to misappropriate genuine anti-racism concerns to further your own agenda.

More Irish migrated to Britain than to the USA. We have the odd Irish themed pub but no "Irish parts". Why would we, the Irish integrated into British families and vice versa. There isn't much difference between Irish and British people, culturally, ethnically, historically and so on. People identify with the country they are born and raised in more here

lol are you serious? there are cities all over the UK with 'irish parts'. I live in one. yes gentrification has forced a lot of the old irish families to move away but it definitely still exists and local history is full of information about the families, culture and communities from Ireland.

You've all gone mad. Have we seriously got to the point where a poster wants someone's post deleted for disagreeing over the use of the word Santa or disliking the use of haitch? Just take a step back and get some perspective on what true racism is. And at the same time give your heads a wobble and allow the last vestiges of freedom of speech to remain on MN.

Most people of Pakistani origin that I know would describe themselves as British (to be fair their non Caucasian ethnic heritage is usually self evident). At a push they'd probably qualify their Britishness by explaining their heritage.

Whereas the Americans I know would describe themselves as 'Irish' even though they're born and bred in America and probably have more English/Italian/whatever heritage than Irish. (Why never English-American?)

I think anyone 4 or 5 generations in that is still identifying themselves by a nationality and culture that they've never/rarely visited can expect to questioned as to their actual connection to that culture.

I come from a part of England that was heavily invaded and populated by vikings. It doesn't make me Danish.

FelicityPike do you also feat when Brita do the same? For example, Pakistani-British. Let’s say grandparents on both sides emigrated from Pakistan, both parents born in Britain, and their child born to them.

Is it—in your view—possible to be both from/of Pakistan and also be British, in that scenario?

I can honestly say I deeply detest when Americans feel the need to say that they’re from another nation.
Irish-American.....no, you’re from Boston mate, you’re ancestors were from Ireland NOT you.
I don’t like that they can’t be proud to be American.
Fair play to be proud of your ancestors but stop claiming that you’re Irish/Scottish/Italian/Greek when you aren’t.

More Irish migrated to Britain than to the USA.

Flaxmeadow, where do you get that statistic and is it a current number or does it represent numbers from early 19th century onward? I’m asking because I’m curious.

Loads to discuss about this, but perhaps a different thread. If it’s allowed and not a thread about a thread (which wasn’t about yet another thread).

OP, apologies because your original thread has been hijacked. You made some interesting points and I hope MNers from wherever or who are whatever will continue to challenge micro aggressions as well as aggression on any thread.

I don’t want to police language actually, but every challenge, clarification, or fact can provoke thought.

Even if it isnt racist the arrogance displayed by some people in their dislike of people doing or saying things differently from them is horrible.

It's not an American perspective hmm I just happen to be American. I'm also an academic and there is certainly a considerable amount of research, going back decades and not just by Americans, on British attitudes toward the Irish and how they were used to justify horrific treatment of the population during the colonial era. It would certainly qualify as racism by modern standards.

Rich people exploited poor people the world over. Wealthy Irish people exploited Irish people. The English poor were exploited by their wealthy countrymen too, Welsh, Scots the same. The colonial era wasn't much fun for the labouring class of any country. Whether you were an agricultural labourer in Ireland or a coal miner in England. They all lived short brutal short lives

What is it that people retain that I haven't retained for my kids?

Is it not more a case of it wasn't retained for you as you say your parents weren't fussed about being Welsh? My grandfather was Irish, he died when my mum was very young and his family thought it was really important for my mum and her siblings to learn about their heritage with a side helping of anti Englishness and sectarian songs. The disappointment when she married my dad (English/Welsh and in the military to boot) was unmatched in family history up until I got married and managed to go one worse. I got the poetry, the stories and the sectarian songs but no sense of Irish identity because my mum doesn't see herself as being Irish if that makes sense.

And of course there are Irish parts of the US, by that I mean areas with a significant Irish-American population that is very obvious in everyday life

More Irish migrated to Britain than to the USA. We have the odd Irish themed pub but no "Irish parts". Why would we, the Irish integrated into British families and vice versa. There isn't much difference between Irish and British people, culturally, ethnically, historically and so on. People identify with the country they are born and raised in more here

We had a long thread about this recently and it's clear many in the UK don't accept that Americans can be 'Irish' but 30 million Irish-Americans would beg to differ

But millions of Irish people don't accept it either.

Look at Biden. He says he's Irish, for some reason, all the time but he obviously isn't and he has more English ancestry than Irish anyway. He is blatantly othering Englishness. He is kind of giving out his own anti English micro aggressions I suppose

It's like if Nicola Sturgeon started calling herself English because she had a Grt Grt Grandad from Watford or wherever , Scottish people would be confused and maybe a little bit insulted too

If a black person with a Welsh accent, parents with welsh accents, had been to the local school with my kids, it wouldn't cross my mind to wonder about their ancestry.

If they mentioned their roots were Caribbean, or Haitian, or anything else, I might ask whether they have family there, or have visited or wanted to. If they were supporting Jamaica in the olympics, there might be a bit of friendly joshing, I expect. Not with me though, because I couldn't give a hoot who about sport.

I'm hoping the pp will explain the Irish American thing to me because it doesn't fit in any context I understand. I'm not saying "How thick are Americans, claiming to be Irish when they clearly aren't". I'm trying to understand how it feels. As I say, my kids do not in anyway consider themselves welsh despite having a Welsh parent, Welsh cousins, and grandparents, aunts and uncles. What is it that people retain that I haven't retained for my kids? All they have is an occasional use of 'now in a minute'.

I see stereotypical Greek American cultural identity on tv, probably Italian American too. Though usually those depicted have grandparents that were born in the home country and still have at least a hint of an accent.

I don't see German American, French American, English American, Dutch American etc. etc.

Would you ask the same of an African American?

Sure, why not? It’s very interesting to me the reasons people of any race or nationality choose to hyphenate themselves, regardless of how far removed from the country by generations and personal experience.

There must be reasons and I’m always curious about people and what their heritage means to them, if they see cultural differences retained after decades—even centuries in some cases—and how/if it benefits them to do so.

I would ask it of anyone because it could be a great conversation.