'Liberal Feminism' subtopic

There are a couple of different things going on here.

There are, and always have been, people who want to shut the feminist board down. For whatever reason, they don't like what the women are saying and want them to stop.

One of the ways to do that is to complain that there are too many trans threads and it puts people off.

Coupled with that, I'm sure it does genuinely put some people off (not the people I'm talking about above).

Another way to try and shut it down is to complain there is no debate. But, as blistory points out, "I'm not so sure that the trans discussions on FWR are a debate and seem to be more of a fact finding, tactical approach to oppose transactivisim/provide safeguarding/protect women's rights.".

If someone does want to debate, as evidenced on the Center Parcs thread, the response is well-informed and robust.

So I think you've got two factions complaining. Those who would genuinely like to see a more liberal feminist board, and those who just want to shut down the current board. Of course, that will become quite transparent, if there was another board, by who becomes a regular poster.

As I said on the other thread, I personally would have zero objection to another feminist board. The more the merrier. Misogyny is misogyny. It comes in all shapes and sizes.

And, personally, I could quite easily refrain from any gender identity remarks.

Oh definitely worth asking OP, and I cannot see a downside.

You’d probably call me GC I (guess) but personally I’d be happy never to discuss gender / trans again. But while shelters and services are being TWAW-ed, causing vulnerable women to self-exclude (some with children) I have to talk about it. It is hurting women.

We need a space where women get it and care, and FWR is that space.

But for those women who think TWAW, or are unbothered, I can see why FWR might not resonate. So having a LF board might meet a need.

mods may well be* over it, that is

I think a LF board could work though.

It’s not a split between academics / and us hoi polloi which is being solved for.

Many academics publicly despise MN feminism. Many hoi polette like it.

There is a genuine ideological split, which would be catered for. Having said that, moderators are over it and I can understand if it is rejected.

@Divebar

Feminist chat was started for exactly the reason you state.

The people who were worried about not being educated or academic enough and who asked for the subtopic because the academic posters were too scary never posted.

A new subtopic will go exactly the same way, no doubt.

Why doesn't this happen on other topics?

At some point, it really does look like just trying to shut women up.

I've hidden the main feminism board from Active and think others may have too. I'd like an alternative place.

I interact with plenty of “non-academic” types on FWR. And women in various circumstances wherein female-only spaces really matter.

Including women who grew up poor (me), women who are poor, survivors of abuse, women living with disabilities, women whose children face challenges, one poster who is living in her car currently and posting when she can.

What is there to be intimidated about. Just set up a burner email so an intern can’t dox you. Done.

That said - I fully support a Liberal Feminism board. I may not agree with libfems on much but I respect their right to discuss whatever, in a space they like. If FWR doesn’t work for them, maybe LF would?

Still think it's a sledge hammer to crack a nut.
Start a thread, specify you are coming at this from a non GC non academic perspective.
It would work as well as any other method, I think.
I do get the intimidation thing, I'm not too articulate myself, but fuck it.

Debate is a whole other issue and I'm not convinced that FWR is the right place for that at the moment given that it has become a gathering point for a specific approach

That's a reasonable point, since the vast majority of people on FWR are basically in agreement. But is there anywhere at all where gender ideology is being freely debated, with people representing both sides? I don't think there is. There's only #nodebate and those resisting #nodebate.

There was Human Rights too, for all the egalitarians who didn't like the focus on women in the feminist topics, full stop.

You're absolutely right! I'd forgotten that! And that one's a tumbleweed now?

Unfortunately, threads like the AIBU linked to above will be joined by some posters who just want feminists to stop talking about certain issues/all issues. There have always been people who would like to see the FWR board shut down completely.

I think some people are intimidated to start posts there.... I would be anyway and I’m reasonably robust. I just feel it’s very “ academic” and my views are just my views ( I haven’t got a piece of research or statistic to support every view I have). Another reason I don’t venture in there much is the “ transphobic” reputation it has. Whether it is or isn’t transphobic it’s certainly preoccupied with that subject beyond what I consider to be proportionate levels and I don’t want to be lumped in with that.

There was Human Rights too, for all the egalitarians who didn't like the focus on women in the feminist topics, full stop.
That didn't get too busy either, despite all the nastiness at the time

No-one will post on it. If there aren't threads about feminism on the existing board that people want to discuss, then start some. I'd love to see a mix too, but not because of what's already there, but because it's so dull to see this raised again and again without anyone actually trying to do the simplest thing of posting more. It's not a magazine, it's user generated content.

Problem is, people will never be happy because there will always be challenge when women as a class aren't centred and 3rd wave feminism is pretty challengable on that score. And then we go round again about nasty feminists.

The issue, doesn't to my mind, seem to be about GC feminists against other types of feminist but more that some GC feminists and some who believe TWAW believe a less fraught debate can be had or that these is scope for a different approach. Others don't.

I'm not so sure that the trans discussions on FWR are a debate and seem to be more of a fact finding, tactical approach to oppose transactivisim/provide safeguarding/protect women's rights. Debate is a whole other issue and I'm not convinced that FWR is the right place for that at the moment given that it has become a gathering point for a specific approach IYSWIM.

I don't particularly enjoy that FWR isn't the place for debate on trans issues but I can also see that there aren't many places online for women to gather to discuss activism and I'd rather leave them be and have a more moderate debate elsewhere on MN. I do think that that requires a less 'robust' and accusatory debate outwith FWR and I would hope that could be respected.

I think the new ones were feminist theory and feminist support and FWR was renamed feminist chat. Activism and book club were already there IIRC.

There would need to be support from the posters who would actually use that topic.

Feminist theory was invented in the horrific aftermath of that time they tried to make a radical feminism subtopic to put dittany in. That went well.

There wasn't that much discussion of pro-gender ideology at the time. There was a lot of outrage when feminists critiqued things like the removal of body hair because they were a feminist and they removed all their body hair and it was their choice and feminism was apparently all about choice and bla bla. It was felt that a forum called feminist theory would allow discussion around certain issues without people taking it so personally.

Feminist theory could be replaced but there are a few good threads on there that it would be a shame to lose. Maybe it would be possible to merge them with FWR chat.

It would only work if the people asking for it are the people who would use it. Making a topic to send other posters to is a recipe for disaster.

I dunno.
There have been plenty hoo has over the years with people not liking the direction the FWR was taking. Not one of the new topics that were provided ever took off.
Let anyone who wants to start a thread, start one. I am sure the regulars at FWR would respect a thread that specified in the OP that it was coming from a liberal perspective, or non GC or however the individual wants to define it.
It works elsewhere on the site - people respect support threads for example. It would work here too, imo.