In response to 'to think some mumsnetters have a problem with blackwomen

I've just reread my post from earlier and realised it could be misconstrued! I'm in support of OP and VladimirsPoutine. My point about of people taking offence is more the "reverse racism" type. Basically people claiming offence as an attack on being called out for racism.

@VladmirsPoutine Your post above was excellent. I'm afraid I don't hold out much hope.

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet I appreciate your considered response. And I know that controversial threads, as it were, are prone to slipping into breaking talk guidelines territory. But as a POC on your site... and I post a lot more than I care to admit... I think it is unreasonable that we can't just have a sensible discussion about race. A lot of threads are inflammatory when it comes to black/mixed women.

I have no issue if people dislike a person of colour just because they don't take to them or whatever. But when posts describing black women as 'pushy', 'uppity' 'angry' these are all, like it or not, centred in racism as they're typical tropes. So I find it often times demoralising that if I start a thread to query this it's deleted, but a post using the term 'uppity' doesn't apparently break talk guidelines.

A lot of people shout down the discussion by declaring that 'everything is racist' and no-one can 'say anything anymore' for fear of being racist. But the more you shut down these discussions the more you give racists the green light and shut down those of us who are genuinely trying to explain why something seemingly innocuous is couched in racism. I admit it's a difficult balance, but it doesn't help if you delete such threads and airily declare them to be 'bun-fights' or 'TAATs'.

I am white so I have no gripe here but I could not help noticing that responses on MN threads are harsher when black women/black issues are involved.

I'm really disappointed Vllads thread was deleted. I enjoyed it and the discussion.

I would genuinely like an answer to my question.

'You keep banging the drum to defend to prioritise the rights of white people to criticise black people - its a really good look and it suits you.'

Perfect example of the lack of comprehension. Where have i said anything about prioritising the rights of white people to criticise black people?? Do tell. What I have said is negative comments about the Carter's saying 'my 7yr old is an icon' (for example) aren't necessarily racist based because a mnetter says so.

You keep 'banging your drum' that all white people are racist though. It 'suits you'.

Some of the very unpleasant posters on MN who call everyone a racist for saying such things as Blue Ivy isn't an icon really do a disservice to those experiencing real racism

So helpful for poor ignorant minorities to have you define racism for us.

You keep banging the drum to defend to prioritise the rights of white people to criticise black people - its a really good look and it suits you.

No wish whatsoever to appear racist or ignorant so under the cloak of anonymity I will ask where the racism connected with Blue Ivy / Ivy Blue came from?

'Oh, thank you. I thought carefully about it, as I really didn’t want to appear up the arse of another poster, you know?'

No you've lost me

It's why there are so many deletions on fwr, some people aren't able to debate without insults.

Some of the very unpleasant posters on MN who call everyone a racist for saying such things as Blue Ivy isn't an icon really do a disservice to those experiencing real racism.

No I don’t understand you, and I am extremely grateful for that.

I very much doubt that you have learned what is racist.

What you have is your own opinion. You may be entitled to an opinion, but whether you have sufficient self awareness to realise when you should talk and when you should listen on certain topics is a different thing.

But you can’t force others to share your opinion, or stop them from forming an opinion of you as a consequence of your views.

Oh, thank you. I thought carefully about it, as I really didn’t want to appear up the arse of another poster, you know?

'As for “you can’t shout racist if people aren’t being offensive,” where on earth do you even start with that '

Allow me to help you with examples. 'Beyonce shouldn't say her 7yr old is an icon, it's very unhealthy and her child will grow up arrogant with a massive ego', isn't racist and again would apply to any celeb's DC. If however someone said 'I don't like MOBO and it's artists' that would be racist as it's singling out poc.

Do you understand? Opinions, unless criticising someone because of their colour aren't always racist. Sometimes they will be, but people have to learn to tell the difference. Aggressively attacking posters, then having their own comments deleted as they can't engage intelligently, doesn't help anyone does it.

Nice username, it's a bit clunky and eager to please though imo.

“You need to” and “you have to” and “you must”. You can’t tell other posters how to behave, HighHorse. Well, you can, but they will just ignore your roolz.

As for “you can’t shout racist if people aren’t being offensive,” where on earth do you even start with that ?

Racism*

'whilst declaiming the terrible prospect of white people feeling unable to criticise "bad" black people is as good a tactic as any to detract from the very real subject at hand.'

The 'very real subject at hand' is you can't accuse people of rascim without any evidence. Report racist comments, challenge people intelligently. It's not rocket science is it.

No-one said this even on that thread.

No they didn't that I saw. However making the claim knowing people can't check the thread, whilst declaiming the terrible prospect of white people feeling unable to criticise "bad" black people is as good a tactic as any to detract from the very real subject at hand.

' I took issue to a suggestion that a poster felt sorry for Blue Ivy because she looked like her father whom was described as a 'grouch' when further pushed.'

He does look like a right sulky misery though!! that is how he comes across in the media aren't we allowed to say that? I'd rather look like beautiful Beyonce that him. You did say DFOD. It isn't a great way to debate is it? Opinions dont always equal racism or phobias. You don't have to be 'nice' just try to argue your point intelligently.

'Fuck off you racist' when someone suggests a 7yr old DC isn't an icon is not helpful.

No-one said this even on that thread. I took issue to a suggestion that a poster felt sorry for Blue Ivy because she looked like her father whom was described as a 'grouch' when further pushed. Racism doesn't always present itself in neatly packaged banana-throwing, monkey-chanting, N-word using ways as much as it used to - though it still does. But as I said on my thread using words like 'uppity' to describe black women is racist.

I am the first to say that if everything is racist then racism means nothing. But what with unfortunately being half black I am a lot more attuned to racism/micro-aggressions and dog-whistling than the average white person.

'The problem with unconscious bias - which is a well documented neurobiological phenomenon - is that the person may genuinely think that they are only reacting to so and so's style or actions or whatever but in fact their reactions are heavily influenced by the race/sex/whatever '

Of course and as women we deal with it daily. My point is if people aren't being offensive you can't shout racist. Debate isnt always easy, look at how if we even question trans issues it can get us labelled transphobes. Both sides need to educate themselves and debate intelligently. 'Fuck off you racist' when someone suggests a 7yr old DC isn't an icon is not helpful.

@Getoffyorhighhorse. The problem with unconscious bias - which is a well documented neurobiological phenomenon - is that the person may genuinely think that they are only reacting to so and so's style or actions or whatever but in fact their reactions are heavily influenced by the race/sex/whatever of the person they are talking to.

I'll give an example I'm confronted with in my work - and to make it clear, I am absolutely not pretending that this is in any way similar to the unconscious bias that black people live with, I'm just chossing to talk about what I know.

I am a female scientist. Students and visitors regularly assume that I am either a secretary or an English teacher. No one ever assumes that my male colleagues are secretaries and there is nothing particularly secretarial about me. It is clear that all the people that make this assumption are doing to so because of unconscious sexism.

It is equally clear that if you asked any of them "do you think that woman cannot be scientists" they would have replied "of course not" and been genuinely shocked at the idea. Their belief that a woman in a maths lab is necessarily a secretary is entirely unconscious.

It irritates me to hell, but it is very minor compared with the unconscious bias that black women in particular have to deal with.

At a certain point it becomes frustrating and demoralising.

Yes this. We already have whataboutery on this thread and its only eight posts in. We can't respond with specific threads becuase TAAT.

Its hard not assume there is no fucking point to it all.