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Update on our moderation of trans rights issues

65 replies

JustineMumsnet · 18/06/2019 10:23

Hi all,

It’s been roughly a year since we published our statement on moderation with regard to trans rights. Back then we felt that we needed to put in place some parameters to facilitate debate on the important issue of trans rights. We think this approach has improved things over the past months, but it remains a thorny one to moderate.

There have been several threads voicing concern about our approach and it’s probably worth addressing them systematically.

We’ve obviously noted some concerns about posts that are being reported from Twitter and by email (as opposed to reporting direct from our Talk boards). We don’t actually get a significant amount of reports from offsite (under 0.1% over the last 3 months) and the huge majority of concerns are directly reported posts from Mumsnet members. But whatever the origin, when we receive a report on a post, our standard approach is to assess the context, and then moderate it against the guidelines.

Many of you have posted to say you disagree with our language guidelines, particularly concerning the use of TIM in preference to transwoman. Our view is that this is an inflammatory term which trans people find offensive and therefore not conducive to creating and inclusive space for debate.

Another thing we’ve noticed when applying the guidelines is that they often support the case for keeping a post on the boards -- for example, we often say, ‘Thanks for the report, we’ve taken a look and the post doesn’t break our Talk guidelines’. And if we do receive a number of reports that result in no action, then we politely draw the reporter’s attention to our rule about vexatious reporting.

Concerns have been raised about our awareness of coercive control. We know that people are worried about this and our team have had training in recognising coercive control. In general, we always take context into account when taking any action.

Several folk have wondered why our three strikes system is used with regards to the FWR board. We’ve found it to be a useful moderation tool and in fact we now use the approach across all our forums. We don’t want to summarily ban people (apart from trolls) and we will always give members a chance to discuss our moderation decisions. It’s a useful indication of where you are with regard to the guidelines - if we’ve been in touch with you a couple of times, then users get a clear idea of where we are drawing the line.

One thing that might be useful to know is that it’s often generalisations that in our view create a hostile atmosphere likely to prevent civil debate that result in posts being taken down.

We’ve also picked up that some Mumsnet users feel it can be difficult for them to contribute to discussions around this topic. Our aim in hosting this debate (which most other media, sites and platforms have elected not to do) is to promote freedom of speech, which means allowing all perspectives to be heard. That means maintaining an environment that isn’t offputting to those with opinions outside the consensus. Labelling folks as ‘handmaidens’ or trolls purely because they have a different point of view isn’t conducive to this and if we see it we will step in and take action. We’re not asking everyone to agree - that would clearly be ridiculous - but we think it’s crucial that people with a variety of perspectives feel able to post.

In short we are trying our very hardest to maintain this important space for discussion, despite considerable and fairly relentless pressure and criticism and we firmly believe that those abiding by the spirit of constructive and civilised debate won’t be deleted or banned.

It’s a challenging issue to moderate and we apologise for occasional inconsistencies which are somewhat inevitable but we’ll continue to do our best to stick to our moderation principles and to make fair decisions.

Thanks as ever for your input

OP posts:
aPengTing · 18/06/2019 13:10

I had a post on the second thread about women on MN being able to identify males accurately reported & deleted because it linked to a website which 'used the wrong pronouns

Shock Wow, that’s taking things too far MNHQ, I’m shocked.

I have to say that I’ve reported a few posts where “cis” has been used on grounds of offence and they’ve mostly been deleted.

Yabbers · 18/06/2019 13:09

Not sure you can encourage debate in the echo chamber it has become. I can take any kind of abuse thrown at me in any other area of the site, but the sheer pile on of vitriol and abuse thrown at anyone who sticks their head above the parapet and disagrees on trans threads is something I just won’t put up with.

And now you’re saying if I report it too much and you disagree that it’s a problem, I will be reminded about vexatious reporting?

Surely the right question to ask yourself is, would any of those threads be welcoming to a trans person who wishes to engage in civilised debate?

I also wonder what your policy is on deleting threads which are thinly veiled attempts to have a go at trans people. They stand whereas similar threads which have a go at non white people are (rightly) deleted.

HorsewithnoHoldsBarred · 18/06/2019 12:55

Is there perhaps a need for you to consider and create a statement on moderation with regard to women's rights?

Excellent question.

Mumsnet?

LangCleg · 18/06/2019 12:16

Concerns have been raised about our awareness of coercive control. We know that people are worried about this and our team have had training in recognising coercive control.

This is welcome news! However, when concerns about this have been raised before, we have been told by team members that they saw no need. And I've seen many recent concerns expressed about this by women.

Is this a recent thing, Justine, can I ask?

And can the importance that such patterns of coercive behaviour on the site are unacceptable be incorporated into any future statement about the moderation of the site with regard to women's rights?

MrsSpenserGregson · 18/06/2019 12:10

I was informed recently by another poster that this is no longer true. We are now about 49% due to the amount of women, girls/infants killed worldwide.

Sad Angry

Bahhhh. What's the point. Women have never had equality and we never will - simple biology sees to that Sad

R0wantrees · 18/06/2019 12:06

Concerns have been raised about our awareness of coercive control. We know that people are worried about this and our team have had training in recognising coercive control.

Many MN members have either survived or are living with coercive control.

A common pattern of Coercive control (just as with all abuse patterns) is that when victims speak out, they aren't believed.

OvaHere · 18/06/2019 12:05

I would welcome a statement from MNHQ on women's rights. Women make up 51% (I think?) of the global human population, so surely such a statement is long overdue. And a lot more pertinent to most MN users than a statement on trans rights.

I was informed recently by another poster that this is no longer true. We are now about 49% due to the amount of women, girls/infants killed worldwide.

Makes the statement even more overdue I guess.

TheFatberg · 18/06/2019 12:03

Mumsnet have made their guidance clear. I'm sure other websites would be happy to host the discussion if you aren't happy.

MrsSpenserGregson · 18/06/2019 12:01

I would welcome a statement from MNHQ on women's rights. Women make up 51% (I think?) of the global human population, so surely such a statement is long overdue. And a lot more pertinent to most MN users than a statement on trans rights.

I actually don't agree that use of the term "cis" should result in an automatic ban. I loathe the term. (@WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles your username is amazing). But I think it helps the debate to keep the term, so that people can see for themselves how offensive it is, as long as we can also use terms like TIM as part of the debate..

Referring someone as a trans-identified male (TIM) is absolutely not hate speech - it's a statement of biological fact. Referring to someone as a cis woman is not a statement of biological fact; it's the selfish pushing of an agenda designed to take away identity and power from women, by implying that they are a subset of women.

R0wantrees · 18/06/2019 12:00

JoannaCuppa preventing women from linking to articles which have important information about risks to child welfare (& use sex based pronouns) prevents women from discussing/raising awareness of those issues on this site.

Its a separate issue which is very important.
Its very controlling.

happydappy2 · 18/06/2019 11:58

If trans identified Male is not allowed, as is deemed offensive to a group of people, then I sincerely hope that cis and terf are never tolerated on this site. I would be grateful if you could confirm.

CassianAndor · 18/06/2019 11:57

not allowing posters to use 'man who identifies as trans' is allowing gaslighting to happen on your site, Justine.

And agree - what trans rights are these rules with regards to? There are no rights up for debate, other than the 'right' to force others to accept someone'e personal beliefs as factual and true.

Change the focus of the conversation. Let's see some guidelines about modding on women's rights issues. You know, the rights of women that are under threat as we speak? Scottish women, as of next week if Wings over Scotland is to be believed, will be directly threatened if self ID comes in in Scotland. (Yes, I understand there's a process to be got through, but you know what I mean.)

JoannaCuppa · 18/06/2019 11:46

Sorry Rowan trees you are right. You didn't say MNHQ were doing that, I misread it. I don't think anyone is saying that pronouns are more important than children's welfare, though. Just that we can discuss children's welfare using terms which aren't hurtful to others.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 18/06/2019 11:46

we’ll continue to do our best to stick to our moderation principles and to make fair decisions

I do appreciate that moderation is always going to be an art, not a science, but I do think you should think about the instabans that seem to get dished out rather lavishly at the weekends.

When the rules change from day to day, it leaves those trying to abide by them to quote a rather well made video Smile , and does undermine belief in the fairness of moderation here.

and this

Is there perhaps a need for you to consider and create a statement on moderation with regard to women's rights?

I understand that you wish to foster an environment where trans people feel welcome and feel that you need a policy in place to help you do that

do you also wish to foster an environment where feminists feel welcome? would a written policy help you do that?

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 18/06/2019 11:45

I hope I can retain my name if the use of "cis" is banned (I do agree it is offensive and should be banned) but really want to keep this name

R0wantrees · 18/06/2019 11:40

Saying MNHQ are putting pronouns before child safety is really unfair.

I didn't say that.

FizzyGreenWater · 18/06/2019 11:39

I don't even customarily follow or post on these topics or on the feminist boards, but I can say that I find the term cis incredibly offensive. It's a horrible term that aims to denigrate female identity. The fact that a lot of the time now it's just used ordinarily, as just another term, makes it worse.

I'd like to request that if the term TIM is an instant delete, so should CIS be.

JoannaCuppa · 18/06/2019 11:38

Saying MNHQ are putting pronouns before child safety is really unfair. We can discuss child safety with no problem. We just can't use banned terms to do it.

R0wantrees · 18/06/2019 11:34

Our aim in hosting this debate (which most other media, sites and platforms have elected not to do) is to promote freedom of speech, which means allowing all perspectives to be heard.

I had a post on the second thread about women on MN being able to identify males accurately reported & deleted because it linked to a website which 'used the wrong pronouns'

I think the article was a statement by Natasha Chart, Board Chair of WoLF (Women's Liberation Front)
Ive asked for clarification btw since this seems an extraordinary & serious precedent to set.

The article is an important powerful summary of the incredibly serious issues revealed by the sytemic Safeguarding failures in NSPCC & the utter failure of BBC /Guardian etc to provide accurate or balanced reporting which instead provided a platform for a few people to malign and smear women whose sole concerns are for Safeguarding children

The response by Natasha Chart provides this, she concludes:

Owen Jones thinks we at WoLF should be embarrassed over talking to conservatives at the Heritage Foundation? Nothing especially likely to happen could be more embarrassing than being represented in the political sphere by men like Owen Jones and James Makings, who apparently think it’s fine to masturbate at work, at a children’s safeguarding charity, and put it on film, then share this descriptively labeled amateur movie with the entire world.

Though if Jones is genuinely fearful of ordinary conservatives, let alone alt-right extremists, he should be so lucky as for them to think of women who have a care for child welfare, rather than himself, as representative of LGB interests. It’s disgraceful to suggest that aberrant sexual aggression and disregard for child safety is anything to do with same-sex attraction.

So it seems there is a question of priorities. My post did not include those extracts with male pronouns when referring to a prominant transwoman.

I have always respected & posted within MN guidelines & it was shared in good faith because of the content which summarised something which is a key concern of MN members. I have posted consistantly on these two threads about violence/abuse against women & children.

I wonder if those who reported did not read the full article.
I wonder how it has come to be the feelings of adults over the use of pronouns trumps risks to children's welfare.

Natasha Chart as chair of WoLF represents the position of many lesbians who have been impacted deeply by the widespread unquestioning prioritisation of 'Trans Rights'

I wondered a lot whilst following those 2 threads & thought a lot about patterns of control, how they manifest & how there is a need for better awareness.

JoannaCuppa · 18/06/2019 11:33

I welcome your stance. I see that it's important for women to be able to discuss facts, but that can be done whilst using non-offensive terminology.

Finding it hard to express a point accurately without resorting to offending terms, is the problem of the person writing, in my opinion, not the person who would be offended.

OvaHere · 18/06/2019 11:29

@JustineMumsnet

I don't think the term 'trans rights' is helpful when what we are actually discussing is women's rights and the problems we face when special interest groups seek to dismantle them.

'Trans rights' from the offset implies that trans people don't have full human rights in the UK which isn't true. What they mean by that term is that they want to be included in the rights of a class of people (female) when they belong to the opposite classification (male).

LangCleg · 18/06/2019 11:20

our statement on moderation with regard to trans rights

Is there perhaps a need for you to consider and create a statement on moderation with regard to women's rights?

It would seem a glaring omission on a site primarily catering for mothers.

MrsSpenserGregson · 18/06/2019 11:20

applauds @RuffleCrow

LangCleg · 18/06/2019 11:19

We don’t actually get a significant amount of reports from offsite (under 0.1% over the last 3 months) and the huge majority of concerns are directly reported posts from Mumsnet members.

But how many reports do you get from members who post rarely?

But how many reports do you get from members who aren't actively contributing to threads (ie are monitoring them)?

Do you have accounts that have been created mostly for reporting purposes?

RuffleCrow · 18/06/2019 11:18

You make a great show of being even handed, but you know there can be no equality whilst women are prevented from speaking about scientific facts and these facts are held to be 'insulting'.

Facts are not insulting. They are not in any sense an equivalent to the abbohrent assumption of 1950s sex stereotypes bound up in labels like 'cis'. They are not equivalent to the false attribution of agency in the word 'terf' which wrongly holds women accoubtable for the sexual dimorphism intrinstic to the human race. You're failing women, MN. Sad