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Original poster

“Racism” towards the Irish on here

581 replies

Giantbanger · 30/10/2018 10:09

Can we please talk about it and can you please get your mods some training.

There was a thread that stood from yesterday. The op was goady and people were reporting the fuck out of it from yesterday.

It went this morning because the op was previously banned for being goady. No surprises there then.

But it contained a post from a member of MNHQ that really bothered me and I would like to discuss.

Add message | Report | Message poster EstherMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 29-Oct-18 19:43:38
Hello!
Thanks for all the reports on this one. We'd like to leave this up as it's a pretty interesting discussion - one for the colonial/post colonial literature experts perhaps (yes - we know there's an argument over whether Irish literature counts as such!) - so please keep to the spirit of the site when discussing this and make your points politely. Thanks

So if there’s a “racist” thread about the Irish, it is an interesting discussion and the Irish need to be polite when telling racists they are racists.

(And Yes. I know in the dictionary definition Irish isn’t a race. It’s a subset ethnicity of Caucasian but the term is used more broadly in general use than the dictionary definition.)

OP posts:
Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:30

It may have evolved in “etymology types” in England, but it hasn’t in Ireland and as such is offensive to the Irish, which makes it racist.

OP posts:
pleasegotowork · 02/11/2018 14:30

Michael, it doesn't have to be DELIBERATELY racist to BE racist.

And you will not find Irish people use the term 'beyond the pale.' It may have evolved into common usage and its offensive origins forgotten to many but that does not mean that it isn't offensive. You've seen that, acknowledged that and are still prepared to leave the phrase there instead of substituting another phrase?

Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:30

The point of beyond the pale is that it’s very roots are in an offensive thing that happened to a people under colonisation. They were put outside the Pale and considered barbarians.

How you can defend its use in the actual talk guidelines of this site is utterly beyond me.

OP posts:
IStandWithPosie · 02/11/2018 14:29

We do take your point on ‘beyond the pale’, but there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context. Our approach is based on whether a term is currently used in an ordinary descriptive sense about a group of people and intended pejoratively. We don’t feel that is the case here.

Does the phrase really mean that much to you at MN that you will deliberately and knowingly choose to offend your users rather than rephrasing what you want to say? Why is that phrase so important to you that you have to use it?

and to deal with them as speedily as possible.

4 days. 4 days Michael.

And that is all you can come up with? Seriously?

Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:28

This is about so much more than beyond the pale Michael.

You really really don’t get it do you.

It’s such a shame.

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=beyond%20the%20pale

The phrase "beyond the pale" dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself.

Given that is even part of the etymology, how can you consider it acceptable? It’s racist. Any of us from Ireland outside the boundary of the literal fence are uncivilised. How is that acceptable?

OP posts:
pleasegotowork · 02/11/2018 14:26

Giantbanger, it's clear that they DON'T get it. But let's hope that from here on it, they'll believe us and react when we report something as offensive to Irish people. I've generally got cross and moved on when I've read these type of comments in the past.
No more. I will report each and every timeffort from this day forth. And you can be sure there will be many comments in the months ahead.

No more.

#misefreisin

MNHQ
MichaelMumsnet · 02/11/2018 14:24

Hello all,

Thank you all for posting here and sharing your thoughts.

We do take your point on ‘beyond the pale’, but there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context. Our approach is based on whether a term is currently used in an ordinary descriptive sense about a group of people and intended pejoratively. We don’t feel that is the case here.

We agree - and it's part of our Talk Guidelines - that we generally should delete posts which are deliberately designed to inflame - sometimes, as in this case, it takes a little time to establish that, however but we'll certainly think about (and do think about) how, as a moderation team, we can speed up our response time

The last thing we want is our Irish members (of which there are many) to feel unwelcome. Please do report any posts which you think are either deliberately inflammatory or racist or both and we promise to take a look at every report that comes in and to deal with them as speedily as possible.

IStandWithPosie · 02/11/2018 14:23

Well if they do craic, that gives us the whole weekend to consider it and respond accordingly, whatever that may entail.

CraicMammy · 02/11/2018 14:20

I hope you’re not leaving the response until 5 minutes before you clock off @MNHQ

Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:19

😁😂 jane

OP posts:
Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:19

#mise freisin

OP posts:
Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:18

Its honestly not just about the one thread that was mentioned in the op. Not at all anymore. It’s about - and was from the beginning - about the mod post and the general tone of mumsnet. The anti Irish stuff that stands for days (like the thread about the Irish border and Canada plus that stood for over a week and which I was told I hadn’t been specific enough when I reported the whole thread).

I’m not sure that hq really get it and I’m not sure that they will ever get it, but here’s hoping I’m wrong.

OP posts:
pleasegotowork · 02/11/2018 14:16

#misefreisin

I love it!

IStandWithPosie · 02/11/2018 14:16

Grin jane

JaneJeffer · 02/11/2018 14:12

We can't wait Michael. Oh, we have to...

#mise freisin

IStandWithPosie · 02/11/2018 14:11

Well I for one am expecting magnificent things from this response that has taken the guts of 4 days to put together. It must be the best response ever. Can’t wait. Are you writing a thesis HQ?

Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:11

Thank you Michael.

OP posts:
pleasegotowork · 02/11/2018 14:09

Michaelmumsnet, please think carefully about what you write in your response. Your last comment only served to.pour petrol on the flames and showed how absolutely you did not understand the complaints being made.

Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:08

I know I probably over reacted but fuck me like we have been waiting for a substantive response all week and I’m completely pissed off.

OP posts:
pleasegotowork · 02/11/2018 14:07

And yes, giantbanger, you probably did overreact about the wain thing, but isn't that what happens when you feel you have to be on the defense? You're ready to fend off comments from everywhere so you're ready to do battle everywhere.
Indeed, that's how the Troubles started, with the civil rights movement being ignored and then things turned violent.

MNHQ
MichaelMumsnet · 02/11/2018 14:06

Hi all, apologies - we're definitely responding today. We'll post on the thread soon. Thanks for bearing with us so far.

Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:04

I’ve reported again.

OP posts:
pleasegotowork · 02/11/2018 14:04

We should start our own metoo movement.

IStandWithPosie · 02/11/2018 14:01

It’s two pm on a Friday afternoon. They’re going to leave this in the hope we’ve let it drop by Monday morning.

Should we all report this thread again now? I think we need to share this thread across the forum.

CraicMammy · 02/11/2018 13:57

I have just reviewed this thread and have counted 57 individuals who have commented that anti-Irish sentiment is allowed unchecked on Mumsnet, and / or that @MNHQ’s response to @giantbanger ‘s original complaint is inadequate.

How many more complaints does Mumsnet require before if takes meaningful action?

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