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Original poster

“Racism” towards the Irish on here

581 replies

Giantbanger · 30/10/2018 10:09

Can we please talk about it and can you please get your mods some training.

There was a thread that stood from yesterday. The op was goady and people were reporting the fuck out of it from yesterday.

It went this morning because the op was previously banned for being goady. No surprises there then.

But it contained a post from a member of MNHQ that really bothered me and I would like to discuss.

Add message | Report | Message poster EstherMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 29-Oct-18 19:43:38
Hello!
Thanks for all the reports on this one. We'd like to leave this up as it's a pretty interesting discussion - one for the colonial/post colonial literature experts perhaps (yes - we know there's an argument over whether Irish literature counts as such!) - so please keep to the spirit of the site when discussing this and make your points politely. Thanks

So if there’s a “racist” thread about the Irish, it is an interesting discussion and the Irish need to be polite when telling racists they are racists.

(And Yes. I know in the dictionary definition Irish isn’t a race. It’s a subset ethnicity of Caucasian but the term is used more broadly in general use than the dictionary definition.)

OP posts:
Raydan · 02/11/2018 15:04

Good idea @changehere. I've also reported Michael's post for bigotry.

changehere · 02/11/2018 15:02

I have reported Michael’s post.

It would be a trivial gesture on Mumsnet part to remove the phrase ‘beyond the pale’ from their definition of racism as they admit its racist origins. It is unnecessary to their definition so would cost them nothing but earn a lot of goodwill.

JaneJeffer · 02/11/2018 15:00

Four days to come up with that!

What about EstherMN's awful statement regarding Irish literature?

Why not use a different expression to "beyond the pale"? There seems to be a general consensus among Irish types that it is offensive to them.

Raydan · 02/11/2018 14:57

Oh @MichaelMumsnet... Just take the bloody feedback! Like really, how wedded to that phrase are you that you couldn't update the language. And it's a much larger issue than just than one phrase. I'm dealing with a sick child right now hence the brevity.

CraicMammy · 02/11/2018 14:56

Please do report any posts which you think are either deliberately inflammatory or racist or both and we promise to take a look at every report that comes in and to deal with them as speedily as possible.

@MNHQ You haven’t acknowledged, let alone taken action against any of the posts I’ve reported as contra talk guidelines today.

Why is that?

Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:52

When a black person tells you that a golliwog is an offensive toy, do you say well it was ok in the 70s and some people think it still is, or do you care about their feelings and get a different sort of cuddly toy?

One reaction is racist. One isn’t.

OP posts:
Poloshot · 02/11/2018 14:51

Hope you're ok Op 😢

Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:49

And the thread that inspired this wasn’t even deleted for being racist. Can we have statement of a stance on that too please.

OP posts:
CraicMammy · 02/11/2018 14:48

Zero insight shown into the issues we have raised about the persistent overlooking of anti-Irish sentiments on this website.

Zero insight as to the probability anti-Irish sentiment will increase the closer we get to Brexit

No response to our suggestion that MNHQ has greater sensitivity to the kind of posts and threads which are trying to inflame anti-Irish attitudes.

Just someone showing off some big words they learnt on their English Literature degree.

Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:47

Can we have a stance on deleting posts that claim Ireland is not a race when posters are told they’ve been racist towards the Irish?

OP posts:
LivLemler · 02/11/2018 14:45

Haitch Q Grin

We agree - and it's part of our Talk Guidelines - that we generally should delete posts which are deliberately designed to inflame - sometimes, as in this case, it takes a little time to establish that, however but we'll certainly think about (and do think about) how, as a moderation team, we can speed up our response time.

Michael, our point about the Irish authors thread is that the time taken to realise it was designed to inflame should've been the time taken to read it.

It was blatant, and the fact that it was left up for so long despite so many reports is shocking. This speaks to the wider issue of MNHQ just not getting the strength of anti Irish sentiment on the boards.

Others have mentioned the "throwing a Paddy" phrase. Could MNHQ please take a stand on this, and delete it as they would other offensive terms? It continues to bewilder me that it's allowed.

Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:44

And yes, what Craic said. This is about so much more than beyond the pale.

What about the original mod statement I pasted in my op, for exam0le?

What about the thread on Ireland and the Canadian border, Michael, and the fact that you expected me to go through it and be more “specific” when I had reported the whole thread? And it stood for over a week, despite earlier reports by me.

OP posts:
Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:43

Why do you believe the provisions of the Equality Act don’t apply to racism towards the Irish posters on mumsnet?

You have admitted the phrase is racist and yet you’re going to continue to use it. So that makes MN racist. You’ve admitted a deliberate breach of the Equality Act.

OP posts:
CraicMammy · 02/11/2018 14:41

So paragraph 1, relates to an issue we raised this morning.

It’s taken MNHQ four days to apologise for not removing offensive posts more quickly.

FOUR DAYS

I’m just going to sit here an enjoy the irony a bit more.

BrewCake

pleasegotowork · 02/11/2018 14:41

You have explicitly said that yes, it is offensive, you can see that. But you're not going to change it. And we can just suck it up. That's just dochreidte.

IrisDolmato · 02/11/2018 14:40

So the resident MNHQ 'etymology types' (?) opinion outweighs that of a large number of Irish posters who have gone to considerable efforts to explain why this term is offensive.

It doesn't need to be 'intended pejoratively' in order to have a pejorative impact on hearers. Children playing with golliwogs weren't doing so with the intent of promoting a grotesque caricature of black features, but no one is suggesting we revive them as this year's Big Christmas Toy. Hmm

And 'welcome' is an interesting choice of word in the circumstances. Are you conceiving of MN's Irish members as visitors, rather than a permanent part of the landscape of Mn, and who shouldn't make demands?

Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:40

The ordinary descriptive sense of beyond the pale IS racist and offensive. It’s totally based on that. It’s not considered acceptable in Ireland. So you’re saying because English etymology types (dismissive tone) don’t think it’s a problem then you’re going to continue to be racist?and that’s ok because why? How come?

OP posts:
pleasegotowork · 02/11/2018 14:38

And who are these etymology types that you've canvassed to achieve a consensus from? Any irish types in there? Or is it just English types who have decided it's moved on from being offensive? Can you tell us exactly what research you've done to come to this decision?

IStandWithPosie · 02/11/2018 14:37

If that^ is HQs final response to this issue then they have firmly nailed their colours go the mast. We have their position. They are going to continue to use racially offensive language. that’s says it all. I’m ready to share this accross and outside of the forum now.

Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:36

How can you have craicnet?

It’s beoynd the Pale. It couldn’t be more beyond the Pale. You should probably think of renaming it.

OP posts:
pleasegotowork · 02/11/2018 14:34

This is so disappointing, MNHQ. And that's Haitch Q.

You clearly just don't want to get it.

Original poster
Giantbanger · 02/11/2018 14:33

Why is your stance that some protected characteristics are more worthy than others? Why is racism to the Irish not moderated as robustly as trans? Both are protected characterises and the Troubles caused the literal deaths of thousands of people.

OP posts:
Raydan · 02/11/2018 14:32

Sorry I posted before seeing hq response! Will read now

IStandWithPosie · 02/11/2018 14:31

that can’t be the response. Is that it? That’s what has taken them 4 days to put together? Is Michael on his own up in the tower? There’s something going on here and I really don’t like it. Something is being held back here.

Raydan · 02/11/2018 14:31

I think a lot of the issue here is that so much of the anti Irish sentiment is subtle and so ingrained in British culture that Mumsnet HQ themselves struggle to understand. We're asking Mumsnet mods to be more understanding and "woke" than the general population. However that's the stance they've taken with discussion on trans issues (it seems to me - I'm no expert).