“Racism” towards the Irish on here

4

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ undergo training to create an understanding of the complexities of the Anglo-Irish relationship with the aim that all staff will recognise both subtle and blatant anti Irish posts and threads as soon as they are made aware of them. We ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines. The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

I'd like them to stop using it too if it causes offence. I'm not personally bothered by it but I'm sure they can find something else to substitute so why not.

I agree that there is certainly a nasty undercurrent in many threads where Irish issues are discussed. I think that's an area to focus on. I remember when Irish baby name threads had comments from posters based in the UK about how 'common' they felt the names were. Now that really annoyed me.

No but it’s the phrase MNHQ have chosen to use.

'The pale' as a means of distinguishing an area didn't originate with English rule in Ireland. Nor did the phrase 'beyond the pale'. Id agree it is the most well known example of where it's been used but as an indicator of widespread anti Irish sentiment on Mumsnet it's not the strongest example. I'm Irish myself (and yes I live here) and I've heard it many times used by other Irish people, as well as Dublin being referred to as 'the pale' in a jokey fashion.

Thank you @IStandWithPosie xxx

Ok, working on draft 4!

How about 'highly inappropriate'? It still emphasises the point but in less dramatic language.

Third draft reads much better to me. Agree with @changehere about the equality act. I think the second section needs editing as it's a bit long.

Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has become increasingly alarming - I'm not sure on the phrase "increasingly alarming". I'd maybe say something like "inadequate and justifying the offense"

I think it's important for our language not to be too emotive so that the strength of our argument can shine.

And again apologies for only bringing changes rather than new suggestions. Tried writing something there but babog went into meltdown.

Thanks for drafting.

I’m not a lawyer, but would drop the reference to the Equality Act as I’m not sure it works.

I think it’s simpler so say that it’s been pointed out that Irish people find the phrase inappropriate, and it certainly has no place in Talk Guidelines in appropriate language. It has been pointed out as offensive and it would be good manners of Mumsnet to remove it.

👍

3

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has become increasingly alarming. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ undergo training to create an understanding of the complexities of the Anglo-Irish relationship with the aim that all staff will recognise both subtle and blatant anti Irish posts and threads as soon as they are made aware of them. We ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines. The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive. In refusing to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines Mumsnet HQ are deliberately and knowingly operating in breach of The Equality Act 2010 which says that “you must not be discriminated against because of your race. In the Equality Act, race can mean your colour, or your nationality (including your citizenship). It can also mean your ethnic or national origins, which may not be the same as your current nationality.”
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

Good points raydan, no can’t verify unless Hq wants to release that info, I’m sure they’ll oblige i’ll remove the “thousands”. We know they had reports as we’ve made some ourselves.

Remove reference to Brexit ✔️

I’m torn on wildly. I think it is wildly inappropriate but perhaps that comes across as too dramatic for our purposes? Appropriate should suffice?

Baby going for a nap shortly. I'll try to work an alternative suggestion up then

Couple of things:

Can we verify the "thousands of racially offensive posts" figure?

I don't think we can justify saying. "In the anticipation of increased anti Irish sentiment in the U.K. as a result of Brexit negotiations and implementation". It's presumptuous. This is an issue that needs to be dealt with regardless of Brexit.

Although I used it myself, I would remove "wildly".

I hope I'm not coming across as overly critical. I've got my business hat on and want our communication to be as effective as possible

MichaelMumsnet with the best will in the world I've been a MN member for over 10 years, this isn't the first, second or even third time the issue of MNHQ responses to reports and concerns about posts regarding anti Irish, anti NI sentiments has been raised.
MNHQ haven't really been listening and as for taking feedback on board - really?

How did I know that would be a Ted link?

👍 from me with your draft posie

Lads, I’ve found someone to give MNHQ some training

goo.gl/images/5zfxuP

Second draft.

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the thousands of racially offensive posts has become increasingly alarming. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In the anticipation of increased anti Irish sentiment in the U.K. as a result of Brexit negotiations and implementation we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ undergo training to create an understanding of the complexities of the Anglo-Irish relationship with the aim that all staff will recognise both subtle and blatant anti Irish posts and threads as soon as they are made aware of them. We ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines. The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive. In refusing to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines Mumsnet HQ are deliberately and knowingly operating in breach of The Equality Act 2010 which says that “you must not be discriminated against because of your race. In the Equality Act, race can mean your colour, or your nationality (including your citizenship). It can also mean your ethnic or national origins, which may not be the same as your current nationality.”
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this wildly inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

@giantbanger #careful now