“Racism” towards the Irish on here

Endeavour is easy to wriggle out of.

I prefer meaningful steps

we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ endeavour to gain an understanding of the complexities of the Anglo-Irish relationship?

Does that^ cover it craicmammy?

If not training, I think we need to encourage them to take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about.

(A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive.

IStand I wouldn't bother asking for an apology but just to remove the offensive phrase. Well done!

Are we all agreed on draft 4 of the post with the amendment removing request for HQ to undergo training? Maybe I will leave it until tomorrow morning for anyone from this thread who hasn’t had a chance to see it yet?

I've just checked an online etymology dictionary which has this definition
Barely surviving in beyond the pale and similar phrases. Meaning "the part of Ireland under English rule" is from 1540s, via sense of "territory held by power of a nation or people" (mid-15c.).
Maybe they should change it to barely surviving except in Mumsnet Talk Guidelines

That was an eyebrow-raising non-reply from Michael.
And yes, I really don't get why you wouldn't find an alternative phrase - of which there are plenty in this case - on being told a phrase you are using is offensive. (And FWIW I suspect that, as in the case of many derogatory/'reclaimed' terms, there is a difference in offensiveness depending on the speaker - I wouldn't assume that because I had heard Irish people using it in a humorous way that it was OK for me as an English person to use it). Also rather at the notion that unspecified 'etymology types' get more of a right to define a phrase's current offensiveness or otherwise than the people who feel denigrated by it for what are undeniably robust historical reasons.

Michael’s explanation that, ‘yes, we know that the phrase is racist is origin but think that it has moved on from its racist origins to be suitable to use in our racist guidelines’, is almost a parody of sasanachplaining. Certainly worthy of an AIBU?

This thread is torture akin to "you are held in a queue and will be answered shortly". I'm fully expecting Ain't No Mountain High Enough to start playing at any moment.
sasanachsplaining

I like version 4. Really well done.😍

It is definitely better to be less emotive. I was reallly struck when re-watching Gandhi that his success was due to the strategy of non retaliation. There is definitely something to be said for quietly turning the other cheek as if one gets emotive or aggressive it validates the prejudice that these people are savages. By contrast, not responding and so exposing their own inhumanity gets results.

Pointing out that Mumsnet unnecessarily insist on using a phrase with racist origins in their racism guidelines when they know it’s origins demonstrates their prejudice and is powerful.

Exactly giant there are loads of ways to say the same thing. They already use different ways of saying it. Why the insistence on clinging onto that phrase knowing both (one of) it’s origins and that people on this site find it offensive.

@ sasanachsplaining!

lol ta me ag gaire at sasanachsplaining.

Like other posters, I've raised 'beyond the pale' with HQ before, and given it up as a bad job. It's one of the stock phrases used my mods when they delete something for reasons not-quite-concretely-aginst-TG's, too. 'This is going because it's just a bit against the pale.'

Have just finished reading the thread. What an absolute joke of a response. That’s us told, back to knowing our place now.

Sasanachsplaining

#misefreisin.

Also that michaelMN said “bear with us”. What, till Monday Michael? What’s another 3 days when you’ve waited 4 already? You gave your response. Don’t now tell us that wasn’t actually it, it was just a place marker.

How about

we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ endeavour to gain an understanding of the complexities of the Anglo-Irish relationship?

Sorry I posted the last item before seeing draft 4. I think it's reading quite well now Posie, thanks for allthe work! I agree with banger's last suggestion though and would remove the training reference.

Like as a phrase it doesn't bother me, but I can see why it would bother others and therefore why it's inappropriate in a section of guidelines about not offending ppl. It isn't the core issue though. That's the refusing to acknowledge what we consider racist and the different treatment of different groups.

I’ve had a bit of a think about what to replace the bits I was removing with but can’t come up with anything that sounded right so I’ve just left it with those parts removed. I think it reads ok? Any suggestions?

I also think it would behove Mumsnet mods to listen to Irish posters when they highlight something as an issue. I don't think there's necessarily a strong awareness among the team of what might cause offence.