Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

“Racism” towards the Irish on here

581 replies

Giantbanger · 30/10/2018 10:09

Can we please talk about it and can you please get your mods some training.

There was a thread that stood from yesterday. The op was goady and people were reporting the fuck out of it from yesterday.

It went this morning because the op was previously banned for being goady. No surprises there then.

But it contained a post from a member of MNHQ that really bothered me and I would like to discuss.

Add message | Report | Message poster EstherMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 29-Oct-18 19:43:38
Hello!
Thanks for all the reports on this one. We'd like to leave this up as it's a pretty interesting discussion - one for the colonial/post colonial literature experts perhaps (yes - we know there's an argument over whether Irish literature counts as such!) - so please keep to the spirit of the site when discussing this and make your points politely. Thanks

So if there’s a “racist” thread about the Irish, it is an interesting discussion and the Irish need to be polite when telling racists they are racists.

(And Yes. I know in the dictionary definition Irish isn’t a race. It’s a subset ethnicity of Caucasian but the term is used more broadly in general use than the dictionary definition.)

OP posts:
Mrsr8 · 31/10/2018 09:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Raydan · 31/10/2018 09:16

abbsisspartacus thanks for posting! This was my experience with British friends. They would make an Irish "joke", I would call them on it and they would be mortified as they hadn't known the history behind it. The history with Ireland is just not taught in schools.

I wonder if it is the same with other countries Britain colonised? To note I do think the term "colonised" could be argued when it comes to Ireland, as the history is more complex than that.

AllSouls · 31/10/2018 09:13

The OP on that thread was out to be insulting and disingenuous from the start and you missed it. Don't try to wriggle out of it now by pretending there was some sort of high level debate going on about the merits of post colonial literature

Indeed. Plus it was very obvious that the OP had never read any Irish literature of any period. I really don't think we can recast this retrospectively as a debate about the postcolonial state, and the identification as Irish or British of writers who worked previous to Irish independence, that turned sour mid-way.

Bad call, MNHQ.

abbsisspartacus · 31/10/2018 09:09

It's true people don't get racism towards the Irish I'm English went to English schools I know absolutely nothing about the Irish except the IRA and the good Friday agreement it's just not taught in school or discussed anywhere really,
the most I learned about Ireland itself was taught to me by a couple of Irish lorry drivers in a pub once I'm not proud of my ignorance by the way I'm actually ashamed of it which is why I didn't post on that thread because I knew my ignorance would show

Original poster
giantbanger · 31/10/2018 08:59

So. I’ve just checked my email and was delighted to see an email from mnhq.

Opened it and it’s a cut and paste of what’s been put here.

They just don’t get it

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 31/10/2018 08:52

We took down the thread because we received more reports that it had gone sour - we also discovered that the OP probably wasn't posting in good faith, and that their contributions were posted in order to be inflammatory.

So, at the start it was reported for being goady and racist. It was left to stand with everyone told to "be polite".Hmm It then turned out to be goady and racist.Hmm

How come the users spotted this from the off, yet MNHQ who had access to behind the scenes info did not @MyGhoulMumsnet? Even when it was pointed out to them?

Original poster
giantbanger · 31/10/2018 08:50

I've reported again to see if we can get a further response from MNHQ, based on the further posts on this thread and the view of what has been said by them so far.

OP posts:
libertyonhertravels · 31/10/2018 08:43

For the sake of balance a thoughtful piece on British Irish relations from today's Irish Times

Our re elected president talked about the importance of language the other day - these conversations matter - and being balanced and fair matters, and owning it when you make a mistake matters especially with old friends. So please MNHQ, be respectful towards your Irish posters and don't ignore us when we tell you that you got it wrong.

Sakura7 · 31/10/2018 08:38

@MNHQ why can't you accept you were in the wrong here instead of justifying your stance? That response is piss poor, you still don't get it.

ElspethFlashman · 31/10/2018 08:37

Jesus Christ MNHQ.

FFS.

Clueless.

Useless.

BitOutOfPractice · 31/10/2018 08:32

So it's ok to be racist as long as you're polite about it? Hmm!

Original poster
giantbanger · 31/10/2018 08:31

Exactly liberty it's wriggling out to say now that it was a high level discussion on literature.

OP posts:
libertyonhertravels · 31/10/2018 08:26

I think the responses on that thread from the outset made it very clear that many posters saw it as goady and racist.

MNHQ - I'm a long standing MN'er and I think your response on that thread and this one is rubbish. The OP on that thread was out to be insulting and disingenuous from the start and you missed it. Don't try to wriggle out of it now by pretending there was some sort of high level debate going on about the merits of post colonial literature Hmm.

peanut2017 · 31/10/2018 08:24

@implantsandaDyson 100% agree with what you said. It started off badly and offensive and didn't just turn sour halfway.

Irish history isn't covered in the uk school system. If we don't mention it - it didn't happen,

implantsandaDyson · 31/10/2018 08:13

The thread didn't turn sour - it was started by a disingenuous poster in order to goad. This was reported fairly early on to MNHQ but their response was to inform posters who could see where this was heading to mind their manners.
If this thread was an interesting discussion on literature - why wasn't it moved to Books, why was it left in AIBU after MNHQ felt it was such an interesting and worthwhile discussion? gotta keep those clicks up?

Raydan · 31/10/2018 08:12

We're probably too small a demographic (especially to advertisers) for @MNHQ to bother much with and the examples given aren't blatantly offensive
enough to make a good headline which would embarrass the site. I just wouldn't expect this to be a big issue for them.

Alex3101 · 31/10/2018 08:02

My OH and I were stunned by this thread and couldn't believe some of what was written. Having a discussion to widen your understanding or knowledge is one thing this clearly wasn't.
It is in fact quite disturbing how little people know about the colonial past of Britain and the devastating effects it had on the world. There literally countries still at war due to the British colonial past and the term Troubles makes it sound like some kids drinking and having a scrap on the street corner.

CraicMammy · 31/10/2018 07:57

@MNHQ Will you be taking steps to better understand the roots of the issues we have raised about anti-Irish sentiment as well?

Original poster
giantbanger · 31/10/2018 07:55

Initially, there was a strong discussion about Irish literature, identity and culture, and the importance of historical context.

should read

"Initially, there was a strong racist discussion about ..."

the Op actually said, way before the mod posted, that Irish writers weren't Irish because they were English really. Or words to that effect. And wasn't deleted. How can you honestly not see that it was racist?

The people to whom it was racist towards were telling you from the get to that it was racist. It was typical of the faux innocent or just culturally ignorant racism that pervades here, and the Irish were telling you from the get to it was racist. Why didn't you believe us?

OP posts:
Original poster
giantbanger · 31/10/2018 07:51

Thank you MyGhoul for coming on the thread, but you haven't really taken on board the points that were being made, and are continuing to be made here.

It wasn't "an interesting discussion" it was a RACIST discussion.

how can you not get that? How can you not see it? And how can you not see that the statement by the mod was part of the problem?

OP posts:
MNHQ
MyGhoulMumsnet · 31/10/2018 07:48

Hi all, and apologies for the late response - we've been a bit overrun and it's all hands on deck here.

We allowed the thread to run because people were addressing the points made by the OP in good faith. Initially, there was a strong discussion about Irish literature, identity and culture, and the importance of historical context.

We received some reports asking us to take a look, and posted on the thread to say that it was an interesting discussion and requested that contributors made their points politely.

MNHQ's comment was a response to the discussion as it stood at the halfway point of the thread - it was intended to draw attention to the points being made about Irish writing being considered through the lens of colonial/post colonial literature (and it certainly wasn't meant to imply that Irish literature doesn't count as literature).

We took down the thread because we received more reports that it had gone sour - we also discovered that the OP probably wasn't posting in good faith, and that their contributions were posted in order to be inflammatory.

It is never our intention to minimise racism or prejudice. We understand that many of you were offended by the tone of the discussion and we could have taken it down sooner. We’ve learnt from this and we’ll try to move faster in future.

If you see any post which breaks the talk guidelines then please report it and we'll take a look.

RelicHunter · 31/10/2018 07:35

Mayra - I agree with the need to tackle racism on MN towards Irish people, it’s unacceptable. But please don’t say, you have comments thrown at you that would never be thrown at black/Muslim people. You have no idea what they have thrown at them or experience daily. Totally flattering yourself.

Ringsender2 · 31/10/2018 07:23

@InionEile agree absolutely with you.

I'm English, living in Ireland. To look back to the country of my origin is to see all of this attitude. Not from everyone, but a significant proportion.

Even 'right-on' people have an unconscious superiority, inculcated by the authorities, media, and culturally, related to our colonial past.

This manifests itself differently and to different degrees - from out and out little Englander Brexiteers down to 'appropriation' of writers, artists, sportspeople, etc, and the view that they're 'really English' for some reason of superficial resemblence/convenience.

I can think of two whoppers I came out with to Irish friends. (I won't repeat them!) As soon as they left my lips I was cringing at my absolute clangers - which were wrong statements. It has taken living in a different culture to expose my unconscious assumptions and prejudices that I was completely unaware that I held. I try to dismantle them, but I'm sure there are more buried deep down.

Mayra1367 · 31/10/2018 07:19

As an Irish person living in the uk for nearly 35 years I have often been annoyed by the acceptance of racism towards Irish people. I have had comments thrown at me that would never be said to Black/ Muslim / etc etc people, apparently it’s all just banter !

Original poster
giantbanger · 31/10/2018 07:11

I've just got annoyed about Halloween being adjudged to be an American import. That's another example of the sort of low level racism and lack of historical and cultural awareness that is so pervasive here.

OP posts: