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Original poster

“Racism” towards the Irish on here

581 replies

Giantbanger · 30/10/2018 10:09

Can we please talk about it and can you please get your mods some training.

There was a thread that stood from yesterday. The op was goady and people were reporting the fuck out of it from yesterday.

It went this morning because the op was previously banned for being goady. No surprises there then.

But it contained a post from a member of MNHQ that really bothered me and I would like to discuss.

Add message | Report | Message poster EstherMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 29-Oct-18 19:43:38
Hello!
Thanks for all the reports on this one. We'd like to leave this up as it's a pretty interesting discussion - one for the colonial/post colonial literature experts perhaps (yes - we know there's an argument over whether Irish literature counts as such!) - so please keep to the spirit of the site when discussing this and make your points politely. Thanks

So if there’s a “racist” thread about the Irish, it is an interesting discussion and the Irish need to be polite when telling racists they are racists.

(And Yes. I know in the dictionary definition Irish isn’t a race. It’s a subset ethnicity of Caucasian but the term is used more broadly in general use than the dictionary definition.)

OP posts:
nakedscientist · 01/11/2018 00:19

There is a ton of anti Irish feeling on MN, the other day I was struck by the way that racist incident on Ryan air was harder to deal with because awkwardly “the plane was registered in Dublin”. And somehow it was the fault of the Irish that the racist ( English) man ‘ got away with it’.
I nearly posted, but what’s the point?

When I’ve said I’ve experienced racism I was told “that’s not racism it’s xenophobia... According to the Dictionary these are synonymous.

I’ve said this before. The English just don’t want to engage with the hideous events that went on in Ireland because it doesn’t match their comfortable inner narrative where they are ‘fair’ and ‘civilised’.

ballseditupforever · 01/11/2018 00:14

My mums Irish. I grew up in the uk to undertones of the Irish being a bit thick and a bit rough. My mum told me when she arrived no Irish signs were out in force. People would ridicule her accent. Despite the fact she has been in the uk 70 years she doesn't feel accepted here.

Racism toward the Irish is rife and ongoing. I'm frequently shocked by stuff i read on here

SnipSnipMisterBurgess · 01/11/2018 00:04

*SnipSnipMrBurgess

Shebangsit

Calm your shit will ya.

No one on Mumsnet assassinated any one who signed the proclamation.

So relax your ass.*

Didn’t know I had a username twin on Mumsnet!!

pleasegotowork · 31/10/2018 19:03

@ Andshewas85 That's so funny, never heard it before. My 90 year old dad was a real dev man, and then a Charlie man more recently ;) The only one he had no truck with is Bertie. And from my mother's side, they fought on the anti treaty side in the civil war. Funny story - my mam is from a small Munster town. We needed an estate agent to value some land for us. I was telling this to my elderly neighbour and he said 'Well you'll want to steer clear of the xxxxxs. Their people put your great uncle in the hospital in the troubles.' That was 1922! And the old divisions in the town are still there. History doesn't go away!

Original poster
giantbanger · 31/10/2018 18:57

Somerville I agree. it was the fact that HQ were already being told it was a racist goady OP BEFORE they posted on the thread, and they made sure to tell us to play nice and spirit of the site - what the hell has a racist goady thread got to do with the spirit of the site?

It's the ignorance (in the true sense of the word) that's shown by mods towards the nuances of cleverly constructed faux innocent OPs that are all wide eyed and didn't know - that other thread being a prime example. AND I reported it, and instead of going and looking and reading the thread, and actioning appropriately based on that, the mod TOLD ME to go through the thread and report each and every offensive post. Not that that would be hard for me to do because it was ME the racism was aimed at or anything. No consideration for my feelings at all. It was a thread of three or four hundred posts. He could have skimmed read the posts by the OP and if he had a modicum of awareness the penny should have dropped. And that's what concerns me. That the mods get the reports, see the posts and somehow miss the racism. How? Why?

OP posts:
Sakura7 · 31/10/2018 18:57

Spot on Somerville, and they're allowed to do it because it's "part of their Unionist culture". Same goes for the horribly provocative orange marches that deliberately go into Nationalist areas to goad people.
This is only going to get worse thanks to Brexit.

Somerville · 31/10/2018 18:51

My main issue with HQ is that their message saying “we’ve had reports but the dialogue is interesting so this is staying” was clearly written without having even a cursory look at the OP, since we later learned that s/he was a PBP of known goady intentions. Given that checking out the OP is Mumsnet-moderating-101, it seems that all the reports were dismissed out of hand. I want to know why that was.

I would like to add, on the wider discussion this has spawned, that it is all very well to decry nationalism when you’re part of a cultural/linguistic/racial majority. For minority groups or those living under invasion, however, it is their nationalistic identity that helps them to continue to fight against the subjugation of their language, culture, democracy and human rights.
Personally I think that whilst nationalism can be necessary, it can be taken too far and nationalistic fervour is generally counter productive. However the flames of nationalism are fanned by a sense of being downtrodden, overlooked or spoken down to... which is why all the anti-Irish rhetoric is dangerous, especially in the context of the north of Ireland.

Finally, where else in the oxymoronically-titled “United Kingdom” would huge bonfires with signs saying “KILL ALL ” be actively allowed by the authorities? Only in the north of Ireland, and only “KILL ALL TAIGS”. Those signs were up for days in July, and that is the context that should be remembered by mods at HQ.

AndSheWas85 · 31/10/2018 18:43

@pleasegotowork.

Indeed, Dev was an awful leader 6" foot tall with not backbone, he really did not females. And knew what he was doing sending Collins over to Britain to sign his death warrant

The enlightened, lady history teachers used to say, "the only reason there isn't a road named after him, is because, they never found one as long and as crooked as him.

CraicMammy · 31/10/2018 18:36

Ok fair do’s

Original poster
giantbanger · 31/10/2018 18:33

I've had an email from Lorna at HQ to say that they are discussing it again tomorrow, apologies these things take time, and to please bear with them.

OP posts:
CraicMammy · 31/10/2018 18:28

Right, let’s get this back on track. @MNHQ your response to our concerns about attitudes towards the Irish is awaited. Please have the courtesy to provide us with a meaningful response

JaneJeffer · 31/10/2018 18:19

Out of the frying pan into the Catholic fire...

pleasegotowork · 31/10/2018 18:18

Sadly, JaneJeffer , the only survivor of those 7 signatories was de Valera who had very definite ideas of where a woman's place was and made sure this was enshrined in law.

JaneJeffer · 31/10/2018 18:12

Oh that worked out so well for Irish women And

WitchesWeb · 31/10/2018 18:12

Well @SheBangsit lets hope you haven't just managed to get the thread deleted. Way OTT.

AndSheWas85 · 31/10/2018 18:11

The Irish Proclamation of independence was one of the most important things to happen in Irish and women's history. It called to people, to stop brutal murder of the British Army of innocent people.
AND below also this was printed large

a guarantee of "religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens", the first mention of gender equality, given that Irish women under British law were not allowed to vote;

JaneJeffer · 31/10/2018 18:09

I've experienced racism from both English and Scottish people so it depends on the Scot I guess!

Original poster
giantbanger · 31/10/2018 18:07

Part of the bloody problem is that I reported THAT WHOLE THREAD to Mn. And michael came back and said go through and report each racist post. He couldn't even take the time to read the thread himself and see what the issue was.

That saddens me immensely.

OP posts:
CraicMammy · 31/10/2018 18:06

I think the Scottish I have known have had a greater awareness of the issues the Irish face when dealing with the English, not least because of their own country’s relationship with England. Many Scots were ‘moved’ to Ulster. English Landlords behaved as abhorrently to their Scottish tenants as their Irish. Sectarianism is alive in the big cities.

I referred to the English (and I am English myself) quite deliberately in my earlier posts and I stand by the distinction.

Original poster
giantbanger · 31/10/2018 18:04

That thread has gone this afternoon then, because I reported it and Michael Mumsnet said the "post" wasn't breaking talk guidelines and could I go through and report any posts that were.

OP posts:
JaneJeffer · 31/10/2018 18:02

people just refuse to even try to understand I mentioned this earlier. It's the refusal to entertain that the Irish person might be right that gets on my wick!

roundturn that's just one person with questionable motives as Bore said

pleasegotowork · 31/10/2018 17:59

Giantbanger, that thread has now been deleted. There have been many others in the same vein in recent months though.

Roundturn, I agree that sweeping generalisations about English people does nothing to help. I think though that this thread was in response Monday night's thread. The danger when people feel that racism is allowed to stand unchallenged is that they get angry. And that does no one any good. In fairness, I think it's only been one poster who got nasty on this thread. That doesn't invalidate the feelings of the rest of us and our absolute entitlement to be offended.

Original poster
giantbanger · 31/10/2018 17:52

I've just checked.

I referenced English in relation to the deleted thread, where the OP had adjudged certain writers to be really more English, and I certainly haven't banged on about it.

The premise of the deleted thread was that Irish writers weren't really Irish, they were Anglo-Irish at best and the decent ones were actually English, so it's kind of hard to discuss that without referencing the English

OP posts:
Original poster
giantbanger · 31/10/2018 17:46

To be fair, this thread has come out of another thread that specifically referenced the English and the Anglo-Irish roundturn which I think is why the focus is on the English specifically.

And I don't think I for one have "banged on" about this English this that or anything. I've talked about pervasive racism towards the Irish and unconscious bias and such, but I don't think (will go and check my posts though) have specifically "banged on" about that coming from the English.

OP posts:
roundturnandtwohalfhitches · 31/10/2018 17:43

I'm Irish. I live in Scotland. Ignorance of Irish history is not solely an English issue. I can't really believe that some of the posters on here don't see the irony. They are banging on about 'the English' doing this and 'the English' being ignorant and 'the problem with the English' . It reeks of the same sweeping generalisations of the anti-Irish sentiment that they are complaining of and undermines their argument.