Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

Because most of those young people haven’t really had a run in with biology yet.

This is true. But both sets of polling carried out are consistent across all age groups. It's just not true, what Justine said. What is true is that the only political notice taken of young adult voices is drawn from the student politics/highly privileged environment and that does have a strong postmodern (and thus pro-transactivism) slant.

Student politics does not represent the majority voice of young people. My two kids and all their friends are tribally hostile - because that is true about the young: they do love their tribes - to this noisy tribe. When I told them we feminists have taken to calling them "blue hairs" they all fell about laughing and stole it as a favoured term!

I think this age thing is just one more sexist trope. Like all the others.

The thing is, no one is saying that trans people always have it easy are they? Just that transwomen are not women! It's not a competition as to who is most oppressed.

Women's issues and trans issues are different. They have different roots and need different solutions. Trans people appropriating the oppression of women and stopping women talking about that oppression is what the problem is here.

Jesus suffering fuck....

It's all about the mighty Y

It's completely bizarre to me that Justine believes her life would have been a zillion times harder if she were trans.

I'm not sure that anything Justine has said changes much to be honest. Yes she's put herself forward to discuss yesterday's thread but nothing much different is actually being said.

Am sat here scratching my ovaries whilst processing it all.

I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans my life would have been about a zillion times harder.

What a way to completely dismiss the experiences of all the women on this forum in one simple sentence.

If we’re talking alienation, I was pretty alienated when people posted horrible, ignorant comments about children like my son. MN took no action. Why did my alienation matter less than that of the trans activists and their dim witted juvenile followers?
Don’t bother, I know the answer

But generally speaking, I am done here.

I think I am done too, I don't matter clearly.

I think netmums bought the kool aid early on. They are very strict there I was told.

I hope you will invite users along, not just staff.

Don't bother asking me, I am not prepared to waste my health being so very privileged compared to the most oppressed ever trans people who are far more important to keep happy.

My feelings don't matter.

If anyone is "alienated" by women stating an irrefutable biological fact then, really, that is their fucking problem.

This.

I wonder if Netmums are being silenced in this way, don’t think some of those no nonsense working class women will buy into this post modernist bullshit!

@UglyCathKidsonBag that sounds probable now that you put it that way.

@JustineMumsnet can you confirm or deny? If so what can we do to help?

Justine, I just wanted to say thank you for seeing that this is important and continuing to host the debate. I was a stroppy caaahh on yesterday's thread (not without provocation), but I understand you don't have to do this and sometimes you must wonder why the hell you're bothering.

So thank you. You are doing something important and good.

pearlkent yes, I forgot menopause in my list too - you are right, although one finds occasional research about a so-called male menopause.

But generally speaking, I am done here.

Having decided that transwomen are females, with legal documents to reflect they are females, despite their fully intact penis and balls, the only thing left for the government to decide is what to call the half of the population that are neither males nor trans, and whether or not those people are entitled to any rights at all.

There is nothing more self destructive that a government can do than mandate belief. Not only do they have to find a way to enforce the signaling of submission to the belief by the populace but they then have to punish the non believers.

Will let everyone know as and when PM meeting occurs.

I hope you will invite users along, not just staff.

Justine, have you read this thread about the impact of all this on the mental health of your users?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3296831-Can-we-talk-about-the-mental-impact-of-being-told-the-definition-of-woman-is-changing

I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans it my life would have been about a zillion times harder.

You do realise thats not the case for every women and girl in the country, don't you?

And women and girls not only face sexism, but misogyny too.

Is this all meant to lull a different audience into looking the other way or do you actually mean that. It's really horrific. I mean, that's a horrific thing to say.

You have to bring the bigger picture.

Probably in social privilege terms you, Justine are on a par will Pip/Pippa Bunce who is married, got a great job at Credit Suisse and even gets to use both the women and mens facilities at work, gets awarded for being both inspirational as a 'woman' and as LGBT, none of the women at CS can object or do anything about it if they feel humiliated.

I don't think Pip/pa has it particularly hard getting all those special privileges of being male, female and trans.

That's without comparing other transpeople with women in different degrees of social privilege.

I'm not really persuaded by the idea that trans people's lives are 'a zillion times harder' than women's lives.

I acknowledge that trans people face vicious and ubiquitous discrimination. However, the effects of sexism - both personal and structural - are also vicious and ubiquitous. It's unhelpful to minimise sexism by suggesting that transphobia is somehow worse. I simply don't think it's appropriate to attempt to quantify the effects of discrimination in this way.

Enjoy your drink Justine - I expect you need it

Bowlofbabelfish

I completely agree with this:

I think it probably is. Because most of those young people haven’t really had a run in with biology yet.
And when those young women run up against their biology - pregnancy illness, birth injuries, motherhood, gynae cancer or infertility then maybe they will reflect a bit more. Or when they go back to work after mat leave and are shunted into the mummy track, or end up doing a full time job and all the housework, or wonder why the men are getting ahead despite generally being mediocre, they will reflect a bit more.

I have seen it happen to women. I'm not sure young women can see right now that we are trying to help them. I just hope it doesn't all go tits up so they end up regretting their current stance.

How exactly are trans people more oppressed? Who are you comparing them to?