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Original poster

These Spelling/Grammar threads - could we have a new board for them? 'The Echo Chamber' perhaps?

36 replies

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 17/02/2018 13:52

Threads complaining about posters' spelling/grammar/paragraph length are getting to be quite frequent on the AIBU board. I think that there isn't a kind way to pull somebody up on their spelling/punctuation/grammar and, unless somebody has asked for corrections, they shouldn't be imposed. I've seen posters be heckled for their posting 'inadequacies' and leave the thread not to return.

Mumsnet is supposed to be an inclusive site where anybody is free to post, but it's not very freeing if a thread itself is peppered with 'corrections' and nor is it inclusive if targeted threads like the one currently on AIBU, are posted to pre-correct and complain about posters' spelling, punctuation and/or grammar, in advance.

Rather than put posters off posting for fear of these SPAG 'bigots', do you think we could have a separate board for these threads? This so that a) posters don't feel censured for their literacy skills and put off posting and, b) posters who want to issue and discuss corrections, can do so amongst the like-minded.

I was thinking that it could be called something like, "The Echo Chamber" or whatever appropriate name?

Pedants' Corner isn't really the right place for these as that's generally a peaceable and instructive board and the posters there don't want 'those sorts of threads' either. I agree with them.

Could you consider this please, MNHQ?

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TheClaws · 21/02/2018 05:31

Sar500 it’s a shame someone felt they had to do that to you. The internet gives a armour of anonymity that emboldens some to be nasty. I bet in real life they are actually puddings. MN’s Talk Guidelines are meant to ameliorate problems like these, but I’m not sure how many posters actually read them when they join MN. Although, it’s just good manners, really.

Sar500 · 21/02/2018 02:32

I started a thread once (under a different username) - it was one of my first posts on this site and someone came on with a sneering comment in relation to my OP and then told me I 'should learn to spell' because I had made a spelling mistake. Yes perhaps if I had the time I could work on my SPAG but some people need to learn not to be so bloody rude. I think she didn't agree with my original post and this was why she made that remark anyway. As a new user to MN at the time it did make me feel hesitant to post on the site for a while.

TheClaws · 21/02/2018 02:24

That’s all right GnotherGnu, they’re not anyway, so you can rest easy.

GnotherGnu · 21/02/2018 00:42

FFS. Given that MN won't have a separate board for the million and one trans threads round here, it would be utterly hypocritical to do it for this type of thread.

BIWI · 20/02/2018 16:31

... or even @HebeMumsnet Blush. Sorry Hebe. Just there are so many Helens at MN

Original poster
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 20/02/2018 14:56

Thank you, Hebe... it's raised the profile of SPaG whilst at the same time issuing a semi-gentle warning growl should the conversation veer off course.

Now onto the topic of ketchup... Stokes is generally superior to any other but, I'm also partial to Aldi's own. Nothing else will do. Baked Beans would be any but Heinz, I don't know what they've done to that blessed mix, but I think they've forgotten the recipe.

Do we have a view on sausages? They're my very favourite things and I'm still searching for the best one... not too lumpy. I quite fancy myself as Queen of the Sausage, delicious things that they are... Grin

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BIWI · 20/02/2018 13:40

Ketchup and beans? You're dead to me, @HelenMumsnet

MNHQ
HebeMumsnet · 20/02/2018 12:41

Hi again, Lying and others,

Just a quick update as we've had a proper chat in the office about this now.

We don't think we can start any new topic for these kinds of posts, we're afraid. As LornaMumsnet points out, if they're truly goady and personal they'd qualify for deletion anyway. Please do keep reporting these sorts of posts - if someone is correcting grammar in a way that is clearly designed to humiliate, that's not on and we'll remove it and have a word.

But when it's a thread about general grammar use or spelling, we think we have to allow that, otherwise it would be hard to know where to draw the line. We're all mildly irritated by different things in daily life (personally I can let an errant apostrophe go but if you put your ketchup too near your baked beans on a plate, you would be dead to me). And, after all, if you can't have a mild moan on Mumsnet, where can you?

But as we said, SPaGnastiness is still a no-no, so if you're ever not sure just hit the report button and we'll have a look.

Hope that answers the question anyway. Do shout if we can help any further.

Original poster
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 19/02/2018 21:46

Thanks Lorna, it has been really interesting to talk about this. It's helpful to know that the current talk guidelines encompass 'Poster 3'-type comments too.

Cheers! GrinGin

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MNHQ
LornaMumsnet · 19/02/2018 10:08

"But I think TheClaws has found the solution; a change in the guidelines that makes malicious SPAG reportable. That way the thread and discussion stays but the personal posts are deleted if reported. The same for posting corrections on an unrelated thread."

We do delete malicious SPAG when reported to us - if you see any, let us know right away. We know it's not in the spirit and we won't hesitate to treat it as any other post that breaks talk guidelines (get rid).

On a side note, it has been interesting to hear some thoughts and opinions here - we're keeping watch for now.

Flowers
Original poster
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 19/02/2018 08:58

TheClaws, I'd never even thought of that and actually, that would do just as well, maybe even better? I do agree that the board would probably sit there twiddling its thumbs, waiting for posters and if posted on at all would die for lack of traffic.

I've been pondering this and I think it comes down to two separate and definite 'problems' and BIWI has already mentioned them:

  1. Some posters encroach on a non-SPAG thread to correct a poster's use of language.
  1. Specific SPAG threads go from a discussion about the use of incorrect English to some posters referring to people who fail to comply as 'fuckwits', 'uneducated fools', etc. which scoops up all non-'compliant' posters.

BIWI, I've chosen to comment on the threads that have been started to discuss SPAG because they don't stay within the realms of Poster 1 & 2, they always become very inclusive and rude about posters being - see previous comment.

I'm irritated and frustrated then by posters who keep doing that, keep using those threads to lash out at others. It wouldn't be acceptable to do that on other threads so why is it ok to do that on SPAG threads?

I've already explained, several times, that I don't have a problem with threads on the subject, I might even join in myself IF they didn't always turn into a morass of meanness, for want of a better description. Why is that? 100% of those threads get deleted because they get reported. Even if I report each thread I'm just one poster. They disappear because they become progressively more spiteful resulting in a higher audience and more posters reporting because some of the posts are so nasty.

I'm not going to apologise for complaining about threads that have posts like that in them. On any other thread, other posters on it would quickly pull somebody up if they were to be so offensive. On the SPAG threads, there is never any comment by thread posters, irrespective of how spiteful the comment. That's pretty disgraceful really when you think about it, isn't it?

The idea of another board was simply to get these 'start out nice turned out horrible again' threads onto a board where only those who want to join in, would have to see them. If I were as invested in SPAG as some posters obviously are, I'd be chagrined that Pedants' Corner doesn't want the SPAG threads there contaminating that board. That's because the SPAG threads have become vicious in their condemnation of other people. Kudos to the Pedants' Corner.

But I think TheClaws has found the solution; a change in the guidelines that makes malicious SPAG reportable. That way the thread and discussion stays but the personal posts are deleted if reported. The same for posting corrections on an unrelated thread.

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BIWI · 19/02/2018 06:59

The thing is, Lying, that you've chosen to comment about posts that were started to discuss/rant about poor SPaG - and not those where people are interrupting others to correct SPaG. There's a massive difference.

I'm sorry if you think I've been rude. I don't think I have, but I am irritated and frustrated by your posts, and your attempt to get threads like these shut down. And that irritation and frustration obviously shows.

TheClaws · 19/02/2018 06:04

I think what you are talking about, then, lies within the domain of talk guidelines and etiquette. In that case, you really don’t need another board - it just won’t be used as it because of the perceived overlap with Pedants’ Corner, plus lack of traffic. Perhaps MN would consider adding or altering a few lines of the Talk Guidelines?

Original poster
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 18/02/2018 19:32

Aethel, I haven't seen that thread but that seems to be exactly the point I made about Audis in an earlier post. It's a judgement on the people who drive one (or would live there, on that thread). It's not necessary.

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Original poster
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 18/02/2018 19:29

The definition is this on the Urban Dictionary:

echo chamber:
an insular communication space where everyone agrees with the information and no outside input is allowed...

The people who keep interrupting threads to correct SPAG are exceedingly rude and absolutely unnecessary. The current thread is a good example of posters talking to themselves.

Quite accurate I thought but suggestions are just that, not a decree.

I've been polite to you, I think you've actually been quite rude.

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AethelflaedofMercia · 18/02/2018 19:12

I don't like the sneery tone of any thread! There's plenty of it on MN though.

Quite. What about the 'places you would never go back to' thread, where various perfectly OK places are described to as 'shitholes'?

At least the grammar threads are educational.

BIWI · 18/02/2018 19:02

... and also, your suggestion of a name for the board is also pretty rude. Was that really necessary?

Original poster
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 18/02/2018 11:41

I don't believe that I am inconsistent. I report posts or threads like any other user of the board does. Trolls, goady fuckers, offensive posts - I'm not discerning - that's what MNHQ has said posters are to do. Complying with the request doesn't make me a 'board monitor'.

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abbey44 · 18/02/2018 11:29

What I think of the term is completely irrelevant. I was just pointing out your inconsistency in what you say in one post and what you did elsewhere. No need to be embarrassed for me, thanks very much.

Original poster
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 18/02/2018 11:28

... and that 'Chav names' thread is now being deleted.

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Original poster
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 18/02/2018 11:26

abbey, Yes I was and not the only one by a long shot. If MNHQ doesn't see anything wrong with the term then they will ignore the reports.

Do you honestly think 'chav' is an acceptable term to use? I'm embarrassed for you if so.

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Original poster
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 18/02/2018 11:24

SandyDenny, how would you go about 'upholding basic standards of written English on such a thread then? I'm very interested because I cannot see a way that anybody could do it without causing offence.

I reckon, you (general) could do it on a specific SPAG thread, call it, for example - 'SPAG1' and discuss any manner of spelling, punctuation, grammar corrections - but you'll be posting amongst others doing the same. There will not likely be posters on the thread who are 'guilty' of the crimes so who will you be upholding these precious tenets to exactly? Who is your audience?

You can't correct posters' language on a random thread on another subject - not without sounding like a superior twat anyway - and you'll be pulled up on that. There isn't a kind or elegant way of correcting people who haven't asked for this.

I don't know what MNHQ are interested in really, I started the thread to find out if they were interested in having a new board for SPAG discussions - because the Pedants' Corner doesn't want that type of thread and AIBU is a general board - SPAG is, arguably, a specific topic rather than a general one.

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abbey44 · 18/02/2018 11:23

Anyway, I started this thread as it was suggested on the current SPAG thread. MNHQ are the only 'police' here, I've got no interest in acting like a 'board monitor', I'm anything but. I've had my fair share of 'Mumsnet Calling' e-mails and posts deleted when I've posted like a twat, I'm sure, despite my best intentions, there will be more.

And yet, weren't you the poster who reported another for using the word 'chav' on a thread...?

Double standards much?

SandyDenny · 18/02/2018 11:10

Why would you think that new topics would make any difference when pretty much the only one that gets used us AIBU.

MNHQ aren't interested in any kind of monitoring of threads to give the site a proper structure afaics

I regularly see threads that start ”posting for traffic” or similar because they know there won't be any replies in the correct topic.

And personally I think there's nothing wrong with trying to uphold basic standards of written English as long as it's not done as a personal attack on specific individuals.

Original poster
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 18/02/2018 11:00

Oh that was far too long, sorry. Shock

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