New sub-section please?

Is the answer to make a Trans board then? So then those issues can be discussed there, but things like porn and prostitution can be discussed in Feminism Chat but without the Liberal Feminist label?

As Pencils said it's not really okay to set up a subsection "for" a group of people which is established and mostly dedicated to talking "about" them.

Why must things be discussed without the Liberal Feminist label if one wants to discuss them in the context of liberal feminism?

And the comparison to the vegan board doesn't work - the vegan board is there so that if you post in there you are more likely to get answers from people who are actually vegan/interested in veganism so will have the expertise to help and advise.

No analogy is perfect, but actually it does work with what you're saying. People interested in Liberal Feminism specifically could go to such a subsection to seek information/answers/views from people who see themselves as Liberal Feminists; they will have knowledge of and access to the reseach, the groups and the events. As with the vegan thread undoubtedly there would be occasional robust discussions as to the validity of a liberal approach.

Whilst the analogy may fall down in other places, I don't think it falls down here.

^I really question that. Any thread about porn, for example, or prostration is dominated by liberal feminist views..^

I meant to preface that last post with this quote, rather than my own.

“you're not all that likely to stumble across more than a hadful of liberal feminists on the general board right now.”

There are no posts about porn on the first page of discussion topics in Feminism Chat.

There are no posts about porn on the second.

There is one post about porn of the third page. It has 25 contributions.

There are no posts about porn on the fourth page.

There is one post about porn on the fifth page. It has 14 responses.

I'm not sure we can use the responses of some posters to porn threads as evidence of a representative number of liberal feminists on the current Feminism boards.

I was only teasing about derailing SuperLoud

OlennasWimple do you think it would be welcomed in a place like Chat, or would it not invite the question "why isn't this in feminism?". And the reason it may suffer in feminism is that it may be seen as either an invitation to challenge liberal feminism or an attempt to espouse it!

Whilst I otherwise think that's a great idea (and plan to do it, regardless of whether or not a new subsection results) for me it would not serve the purpose of being able to contextualise discussion around the many, may feminist subjects that present themselves every day.

SuperLoud "Tory" and "Corbynite" are frequently used as slurs as well, but I don't think most people would allow the word they use to describe themselves to be dictated to them by those whose views differ.

There may not be an agreed-upon definition, but I don't see that posing to great a problem if I'm honest. No single forum heading is completely definitive; everything is nuanced; and I don't think anyone's likely to suffer too great a trauma if the LibFem section fails to meet their expectations. But I'm prepared to be convinced?

MN said this is the board for discussing Feminism and WR. And guess what - all MN boards are open! If someone says porn and prostitution isn't damaging to women I'll be on that thread arguing they're wrong even if it's in the fecking Camping section.

And this is absolutely right and appropriate, and wouldn't change were there a separate subsection. But on a subsection someone could specifically target a question - about porn for example - to liberal feminists; because as it stands (yes, with the trans debate so widely discussed on the main board most likely being one of the reasons) you're not all that likely to stumble across more than a hadful of liberal feminists on the general board right now.

Would a trans embargo area work then, rat?

I don't know, but if someone proposed one I'd certainly consider it :)

FWIW this is some first rate derailing folks - bravo!

Let me reiterate, I am requesting a Liberal Feminists subsection, not to detract from or compete with the existing broad-based Feminists section; not as a location for threads which I somehow feel "could not exist" on the existing board; not as an echo-chamber for my own personal views or the views of any other group; not to label the users of the existing board; not in order to exclude those not identifying as liberal feminists; and not because TRANS.

I would like this because I feel some MN users would appreciate a way to raise topics and discussions in the context of liberal - as opposed to broad-based or any other - feminism.

Oh, and Rat, I thought you weren't all that invested in the trans issue? Interesting.

Hey Ereshkigal, I wasn't... but I've been peak-somethinged

Anyway, do see above comments regarding this not being about trans (despite obviously not having come about in isolation of it).

I wonder though rat whether you mean a libfem topic or simply a topic where trans issues are not discussed? What issues do you see being discussed there that you don't feel you could have a thread on the main chat topic about?

Hi Pencils, I do in fact mean a Libfem topic, although no doubt trans issues would come up. For me it is not that I think issues cannot be raised on the main board, it is simply that one cannot raise a topic for discussion in the context of liberal feminism. You can only raise a topic in the context of feminism as a whole - and it is the lack of contextualisation that I believe can render discussions either less in depth, less helpful or indeed less inclusive in virtue of their being raised on a broad-term feminist board. (By "less in depth" and "less helpful" I mean only that the regular users of a broad-based board are so numerous and so diverse that frequent large derailment can hinder useful discussion. Derailments are good, they're helpful and useful and nothing stops anyone posting on any single post or subforum on MN, but when a whole thread is spent attempting to return to the original premise it may have been better placed in a sub-forum for more specific attention.)

I must be being very thick, but I still don’t get it. Why not use an actual feminist example?

Well the point I'm trying to make is about feminism; I was explaining using analogy. What was the question again? What will the "entry requirements" be? There won't be any - it would be a place to discuss feminism in the context of Liberal Feminism specifically.

I was just interested in whether you followed the argument to the logical conclusion

Maryz we'll have to chat another day on another thread about logical fallacies and nonsequiturs

This does seem to me a request for a protected space where people can push TRA ideology without having to deal with anyone challenging, debating and pointing out the many, many things wrong with it wouldn't be allowed.

Whilst I feel the need for a liberal subsection perhaps would not have come about were it not for the present polarising trans debate, this is not about trans.

So is this about trans issues, not liberal feminism?

This is not about trans.

I do think trans issues get in the way of other conversations that feminists can usually manage to have without too much conflict.

I think so too. The reason I think a subsection would help solve the issue is because I think the reason trans is such as issue for many feminists and not so much for others is a question of ethos and dogma. Liberal feminism I believe is typically the ethos of practical feminism, empowerment and individual choice. Under those banners the issue of trans is less imperative than under the general banner of feminism which, in virtue of its breadth, has a greater preoccupation with oppression, the patriarchy and women's rights separate from human rights.

This is why I enjoy the open board. I want to read all the opinions. It does change minds.

That wouldn't change!