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MNHQ here with an update on our recent moderation decisions

30 replies

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 13:44

Hi all

We thought we should come and address some of your recent points about our moderation, and particularly the worries you have about whether MNers have been taken in by a troll over the last few months, and how MNHQ has handled the issue.

Lots of you have probably missed our previous posts, so the plan is to bring everything together in one place and explain why we’ve been pretty firm about shutting down speculation on this case. We missed an opportunity to do so earlier and it’s led to lots of confusion - we’re very sorry about that, and we want to put it right now as far as we can.

So this is where we’re at: we don't have any evidence to suggest that a fraud has taken place, or that any MNers have been conned. As far as we can tell – and we have looked as carefully as we’ll ever be able to – the poster in question is the person he says he is: the father of a little boy whose mother has just died.

As we’ve said before, we can’t be 100% certain of anyone’s real life identity - it's simply not within our capabilities to know whether the person we’ve spoken to on the phone and via email and who’s been posting on the board is the same as the person of the same name and circumstances who exists elsewhere on the internet. What we do know is that we haven’t seen anything to suggest that money that kind Mumsnetters have donated has been misappropriated or misused - if we had, we would of course have involved the police.

Because MNers are understandably worried and upset, the idea has taken hold that wrongdoing has taken place. But, to be completely clear and to the best of our knowledge - it hasn’t. If you have evidence to the contrary, please get in touch with us immediately.

There have been deletions all over the shop on this - we know this must be incredibly frustrating and that loads of you still have questions and worries that you want to discuss. But we hope you’ll understand that we just can’t allow speculation or conjecture: the consequences if we do are too dreadful, for the family concerned on the one hand, but also for MNers, who are legally responsible for things they say on the boards which turn out to be unfounded.

Two posters have said on the board that they’ve received messages, off Mumsnet, which they felt were inappropriate and worrying - one of these posters reported this direct to MNHQ. We’ve been back to her, of course, but she's now told us definitively that she does not want to pursue it further and has de-regged. The conversation she describes did not take place on MN, and so there’s nowhere further that we can take that, unfortunately. We’ve of course been through the PMs on the account in question and there is nothing there that we’d characterise as harassment of any kind.

Despite all this, we suspended that individual’s account a few days ago, simply because we felt that his continued presence on MN was unlikely to do him, or MNers, any good.

We do see why the existence, for example, of a JustGiving board got people’s hackles up - but again, that’s quite a different thing from actual fraud of which we have zero evidence (and once again, please do bear in mind how serious an issue that would be, and that MNers are responsible for their own posts.)

What we really, really don’t want to do is to shut down discussion about the principles of the matter and our policies on this and other things - and when JustineMumsnet gets back from her break we’ll of course be debriefing her on the many points you’ve made (both on current and deleted threads, which we’ve been through with a fine tooth comb).

One thing that we’ve already done is to change our policy on links to crowdfunding/fundraising sites unless they benefit a registered charity - we agree that moving one of the threads in question to the Charities Noticeboard was a miss-step and that definitely won’t happen again.

We’re also looking really hard at what we say on the boards to reassure users who are worried about a potential troll - in retrospect, we shouldn’t have said that we’d gone above and beyond in checking this case out, because that implies that we can definitively validate any identity, and we can’t.

We really do want to hear what you think, and we listen hard to things that are pissing MNers off - recent examples are the changes underway on usernames1234 and the removal of the T-bar ad on mobile. We consistently turn down more ads than we take. We don’t and never ever will take money from tabloids for our content. We still put purpose before profit, and that’s not going to change - it's why a lot of the MN team have chosen to work at MN Towers. We do have to be sustainable - we’d all be out of a job otherwise - but it’s really worth having a look at the other place if you haven’t recently, to see what really chasing commercial gains looks like: it’s intrusive ads and a lot of sleb gossip.

We hope this helps to clarify our position a bit; do please do put your general thoughts here on this thread - we’ll be listening and we’ll try to help clarify anything that we haven’t covered here. Please do take on board what we’ve said about conjecture though - we’ll have to delete speculative posts if we see them here or if they’re reported on other threads.

Thanks

MNHQ

SandyMumsnet · 10/08/2017 17:00

Hi all,

Just a reminder that if anyone has any concerns or information about this situation, could they please not speculate on the thread and contact MNHQ directly at [email protected]. Thanks.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 22:06

Sorry you think that Picket - this does feel a bit off-topic though tbh and your post calling another named poster a fantasist really wasn't ever going to be allowed to stand.

Right, I hope the rest of it has been useful to clarify what's been going on over the last few days, and what we're taking away from it all as learnings to be discussed at MNHQ. As I said above, we're going to be going through all the points raised here and on the deleted threads to see what we can incorporate into the way we do things, or at least try out to see if they have a positive effect.

Everyone on the community team understands that the rules have changed about fundraising and crowdfunding, so please do report any instances you see (though bear in mind the fact that it will take a while to filter down to other posters so please go gently on them!).

And please, please - do report anything untoward. As you must all be very bored of hearing by now, it's the only way we get to know about things, so we really do need your help with this.

Thanks all, and good night.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 21:48

We don't always give warnings - it takes quite a bit of time and that's time that could be spent helping other posters who need it. But posters can see, for eg, when they've been deleted - and in truth we think they should be able to translate that into 'oops, I'm on a shaky peg here'. Our experience is that people do usually know that they've been out of line - and the vast majority of posters have never been deleted or banned at all.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 21:38

@PicketsPocket

Stratters stated very clearly that she would stick to the talk guidelines.

We read her response as an indication that she was not going to stop following that poster round the boards, and that's what caused the ban. We'd obviously rather not discuss individual cases but you're implying that we're being dishonest, and we're not.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 21:35

We're really keen to get the message across that we don't ban for reporting, because that's literally how we moderate MN - via reports.

But on the wider question of banning and how and why we do it, we're going to have to agree to disagree (plus it's a bit off-topic to the subject of the thread).

In all honesty, we do have to be able to ban either temporarily or permanently posters who we think are making the place less of a pleasant place to be for other posters, or who are goady or inflammatory and won't stop - and sometimes, ones who we just don't think we're ever going to be able to make happy, because it conflicts with our other values or our need to keep MN a happy place overall.

We do that in various ways, and of course it's not going to be pleasant for the person in question - but by the time we get there, they will have failed to take multiple opportunities to stop the behaviour, so in all honesty I don't think they can reasonably be too cross about the manner in which their suspension takes place.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 21:22

@PicketsPocket

Oh you do Kate. I can promise you that happens. Do you honestly think MN emails don't get shared around outwith of here? There's at least four off board groups I know of with all of one poster's emails posted.

Please don't try and sweep this under the rug. Posters have and are banned for reporting.

That's just not true I'm afraid. That may be how you are interpreting the mails you are sharing, but it's absolutely not the case that we ban people for genuinely and in good faith reporting their concerns about another poster.

We've banned people for following others with whom they have an ongoing beef around the boards seeking out stuff to report - but only after warnings, and as I said upthread in that case they're actually banned for refusing to change the behaviour when asked.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 21:13

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

And your "sorry" there sounds to me as if you are dismissing me.

It wasn't intended to - it ws a genuine if rueful acknowledgment that there isn't really a solution to the problem you identify. Whatever we do, someone is going to be frustrated or unhappy - and I can see your point that sometimes there's a keg-explosion. But on balance we really believe that banning trollhunting and always advising people to report is overall more beneficial to more people.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 21:08

@PicketsPocket

Plus it's been made very obvious that you're banning posters for reporting, which is ridiculous..

I don't think we have at all Pickets - I specifically said upthread that we absolutely don't ban people for reporting and that there's always something else in play?

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:52

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

that has now become to an extent that any kind of questioning is deleted as troll hunting.

Which means no one can ask any questions.

Do there are loads of people who would like to ask questions who are sitting on their hands.

We know it can be really frustrating but people don't have to sit on their hands - they can report. We really do look carefully at all reports of suspect posting. We won't always be able to take action in the way the person reporting would like - in all honesty the result would be lots of bans of people who are genuinely seeking support and that wouldn't be right either. Sorry.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:37

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

How about my suggestion of deleting all.content but leaving thread up with just the deletion message?

Sorry, ItsAllGoingToBeFine, I didn't quite follow you the first time. Currently the deletion message does stay up, but the posts can't be seen. Is that what you meant or something different?

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:31

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

Also (sorry brain dump) could you have a conversation with us and in the office around when a thread gathers an "Army" for want of a better words and how those who are not totally fawning to the army are treated on threads.

Because many many people didn't challenge in the threads because they knew they would be torn to shreds. Which meant when it did blow there was a real keg of force of dissatisfaction behind it

That's an interesting point. It would be quite difficult to do this proactively I think without actually seeming inflammatory ourselves. But we will definitely have a conversation here about poking our head round the door in that situation, to indicate that we don't want to see vilification of those who, for want of a better word, aren't fans. What we'd never want to do is to encourage trollhunting on the thread - that's a different thing entirely.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:24

@Blingygolightly

Thank you for the response MNHQ. One question I raised was whether in future the thread can be frozen with an explanation of many reports together with deletion of libellous/offensive posts? This would stop the 100 TAATs and accusation of a cover up.

I can see your thinking Blingy. The problem is that, frequently, no-one covers themselves in glory on threads that we delete (generally, not speaking specifically about this one). And tbh we don't really think it would prevent TAATs - people would go back to the thread and pick over it, and then start a new one if they disagreed with specific posters or with MNHQs decision to freeze it. But we'll think further for sure.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:08

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

Just to pick up on one thing.

He's suspended, not banned?

Can't really comment further on that at this stage I'm afraid other than to repeat that the account was suspended simply because being on MN didn't seem to be benefitting any parties. We'll have to review the situation in time.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 20:01

@MargoChanning

Thank you for your response Kate.

I would like to know if mumsnet would consider having deletion messages on threads read on the app?

Quick update - deletion messages on the app is all done bar the shouting and will be released in the next couple of days.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 19:41

@HoneyDragon

Oh and for the last time

Why is this still here?

Though also, civility is really important in these conversations we think - MNHQ staff are people doing their jobs after all.

RebeccaMumsnet · 09/08/2017 19:32

@HoneyDragon

Oh and for the last time

Why is this still here?

Thanks Honey, I'll look into that one now.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 19:21

@MadnessAbounds

Some of the recent bans have raised eyebrows, and as mentioned above, some people are in the dark as to what they did wrong.

Are you able to answer the question now?

[quote MadnessAbounds]Do you know this feeling? You're arrived at the bar in the pub, and the bloke next to you gets served first, and then another one, and then one who wasn't even at the bar when you arrived, and on it goes. And you sort of start to wonder if you are invisible ... Sad

Sorry madness, I thought I'd answered that more or less in my post of 15:05:55. Can't go into individual details but on the whole we let people know when and why we ban them unless we think it's blindingly obvious. I know that there have been some exceptions but I think that's more chance than design - we'll look at formalising this process so that everyone gets an email (unless out and out wrong'uns).

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 19:08

@Bluntness100

I really think it's inappropriate for it to be acceptable for folks to come on and ask for money, it should not be one of the acceptable uses of the site.

Just to be clear, this is what we're proposing to do. We won't allow crowdfunding or fundraising at all, unless for a registered charity.

If this turns out to be a miss-step and there's a feeling on the boards that it's too constraining we can always think again - but for now, we'll stick with registered charities only.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:59

Really sorry, I've got to bow out for a bit now - I'll be back on for a while a bit later though.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:57

@Mychildcouldnotbreaatfeed

Could you, as has been suggested, maybe beef up the warning and review how often it is posted?

Yes, this is probably what we'll do.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:46

@SerfTerf

I take your point that you don't hve a direct remit for goings on on WhatsApp or anywhere else.

BUT if MNers are reporting worrying offsite contact (and four separate MNers are) after offering support on MN to someone who represents themself as vulnerable and needing support, then in a future parallel situation, MNHQ wouldn't just ignore that and let the threads continue, surely? Or would they?

No, we definitely wouldn't ignore it SerfTerf - could you mail us with the details?

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:42

@PollyPerky

I didn't reply to them but reported their PM to me to MNHQ. The outcome was to see the message disappear from my inbox. I could have done this myself but what I wanted was some feedback from MNHQ on what action or investigations they had carried out.

Sorry about that Polly - we'll take a look. If we reply to each report we end up having a lot less time to tackle the rest of them, but I agree that PMs are a different thing altogether and I'll pass that along.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:33

@PollyPerky

Just to pick up on one other poster's comments here - was the lack of communication because this took place on a weekend and shortage of staff was the issue?

No, it was just human error Polly.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:29

@PurpleDaisies

I don't understand why there couldn't be an email sent saying communication with MNHQ is over and you're banned.

There usually is Purple, when it's a permanent suspension of the kind I mentioned. I'll double check though - you're right that in that situation people should know what's happened. When we ban posters for demonstrably being wrong'uns it's probably less of an issue.

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 15:19

@FenellaMaxwellsPony

I would like to know why an explanation has been so long in coming. This all started really kicking off on Friday, and it's now Wednesday afternoon.

@Peanutbutterrules

I think that HQ was too slow to apologise/recognise the impact of the 'above and beyond' comment. If this aspect had been acknowledged straight away you would have saved yourselves some grief!

It's a fair point Fenella and Peanutbutterrules. We had a miscommunication here on Sunday morning - we'd intended to post explaining why we were deleting both the original threads and the subsequent speculative threads, but it didn't go up. This was redressed on Monday on another thread, but that thread was ultimately deleted for speculation too. There's another similar post by me yesterday on a thread over here.

But yes - we're very sorry for the delay.

@Peanutbutterrules

My only other observation is that a lot of communication lately from HQ seems to have lost it's humour/MNet feel to it. Maybe it's new mods who don't have the same approach/touch that previous ones had or maybe everyone's just a tad over busy? In any event, it feels a little less fun around here.

Sorry you feel this Peanutbutterrules - I know the community team do try to bob into threads whenever they can, and they'd definitely say that it's one of the loveliest aspects of their jobs. It's true that the more reports we tackle, the less time there is for fun - we've been thinking recently about what we can do to address this. Hope it helps to know that it's on the radar.

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