MNHQ here: have you got strong feelings and personal experience about partners staying overnight on postnatal wards?

One Dad stayed and he snored very loudly throughout the night... I was ready to wack him! So much for a rest after giving birth. I'm not even sure if he was told to leave!?!?

Satellite makes some excellent points.

Having read everyone's comments and based on my own inhumane experience, I really don't see any acceptable solution in a civilised country other than providing private rooms for everyone. Presumably that's why almost all developed countries other than the UK, including many much poorer than ours, provide private rooms as standard; the alternatives are completely unacceptable and can't accommodate everyone's needs. So the solution seems obvious. Other countries would not all be spending tax payers' money on this just for fun, if it wasn't necessary, would they?

The question is whether Mumsnet's journalist friend is going to write that up as the conclusion?

The most annoying of the parents was the snoring dad

On children's ward with my son I never got a wink of sleep - too busy worrying about him. I'd have killed a snoring parent for having the audacity to be able to nod off!

SatelliteCity has nailed it well.

The whole premise of the debate is divide and conquer in many respects, when we should be working together to make sure that the resources and facilities are available for all - and as pointed out, sometimes HCP are not the appropriate people to provide this support which can only be provided by family.

Oh and given that parents (who have to be there) pay for their own food, and shower at home when swapping over with their partner/relative, partners on the postnatal ward can do the same.

Katy I have not given birth but have been on a shared gynae ward in a vulnerable state for a couple of nights, and have also been in overnight with DS as an infant/toddler on both a shared ward and a private room.
Obviously I wasn't in a physically bad state in the children's ward but emotionally when your baby is on oxygen you are very fragile. Staff were good about restricting overnight numbers, no child had two parents except for the emergency 3am admission.
The most annoying of the parents was the snoring dad. There's always a snoring dad I think.
So I would think they could manage to sort out partners on labour wards especially in private rooms.

I was so relieved that my husband was able to stay with me on the ward during the first night following birth of my baby. I arrived on the ward at 9pm at night, following surgery to repair a severe tear, with a baby that screamed all night, having had no sleep for nearly 48 hours. Without the support of my husband that night I think I might literally have broken down and been unable to cope. There were 4 women on the ward, all of whom had their partners with them overnight, the curtains provided privacy and not one of the other men was intrusive or annoying in any way. I can completely understand why this is an issue that results in strong opinions either way, but my personal experience was sheer relief that my husband was able to come to the ward with me and is the main reason that I would choose to deliver at the same hospital if I ever have another.

When I gave birth last year, the hospital had recently changed the rules to allow husbands/partners to stay beyond visiting hours and I was SO glad that they had.

I had to stay on the postnatal ward for 3 days due to initial difficulties with breastfeeding; I was exhausted and incredibly emotional and my husband's support was invaluable.

Because the bays are so small, he left for 4/5 hours each night to get some sleep. I only wish there had been a reclining chair so that he could have stayed. My DS would categorically not sleep in his plastic crib which meant one of us needed to be awake to hold him.

I can't imagine what it must have been like before seeing your exhausted wife give birth, struggle with breastfeeding and then be told that you had to leave her and your tiny baby when visiting hours were over.

There is no way to reconcile the needs of vulnerable, exhausted women who need their partner's support with the needs of vulnerable, exhausted women who need a space without men they do not know unless there is a dramatic increase in the number of private rooms available.

I think it's important to note that both of these groups contain traumatised women. There's a tendency to portray those who want partners to stay as selfish and thoughtless. But birth is an experience that can be truly terrifying and traumatic even without mental health difficulties or triggering personal histories. For those with them, the presence of a partner can be absolutely essential.

Coming down on either side really does mean throwing someone under the bus.

Increased staffing would help but wouldn't truly address the issue. Many women don't want assistance from strangers and one could just as well argue that increased staffing or the addition of security staff could address the issues caused by the presence of partners on the ward.

Finally I agree with the point that the presumption that the parent who gives birth will be the primary carer during those first days is sexist. Perhaps it is simply because mother and baby are usually both patients but even if the intention is innocent it reinforces a very stereotypical structure. Particularly given a woman who is likely to be exhausted and physically injured is still expected to provide full time primary care.

A big thank you to this journalist for publicising this issue. I don't know what the answer is but you only need to look at some of the thread on here about postnatal care to see why it's so important that postnatal care gets the publicity and public discussion it deserves. Hopefully improvements will follow these debates

But relatives shouldn't be shouldering the weight of personal care - this isn't the third world. I understand what you're saying but what's needed is private rooms as default and more resourcing of birthing and postnatal units.

The question shouldn't be 'should we have partners on birthing wards?' It should be 'why the fuck are women on postnatal wards and not in private rooms as standard?'

Most other European countries do this. Even the poorer ones. Uk maternity care is a disgrace.

I have strong feelings for it, imagine how much weight would be lifted off MW shoulders of say a c section patient, who really can't do much, even pick baby up, might not have feeling in legs fully restored.

I get the whole women's dignity, but surely your dignity is a 24/7 issue, so visiting hours would be a problem hypothetically. How are they different?

I think especially first time Mums / Mums who have had a traumatic birth, they need all the support possible.

On a gynae Ward years ago, women and partners arrived at 8am due to MMC, which is awful, they stayed all day long and into the night. None of us had an issue.

All my deliveries were sections btw.

Absolutely not on a shared ward. Maybe in a private room, but only if toilet and bathing facilities are completely separate. If people need more support then we need to employ more midwives and nurses.
DC3 was born during the swine flu scare - the hospital banned all visitors except fathers and reduced visiting hours. I was on a ward with three other women, we all agreed it was bliss.

If my partner had been able to advocate for me at times whEn I felt the midwives were pushing me into things I felt uncomfortable with but didn't have the ability or strength to argue with I would be in a much calmer less anxious place now.

Consent is a big part of why women want partners to stay...
Women do not trust HCP in the way they should and are feeling pressured by them. Why are HCP doing this? Targets, pressures on resources and staffing primarily.

Again it comes back to the same things, time and time again.

How many more scandals are needed before the penny drops?

I'm torn. I just left hospital today after a week. Partners weren't allowed to stay overnight but had extended visiting. I'd had a section and felt very abandoned by staff in the first 12-24 hours as the ward was so busy. Another patient had to help me lift my baby from his crib because I couldn't move and the midwives expected us to just get on with it. Therein lies the issue with staffing. If there had been enough staff to help women in need perhaps those who need partners for the physical support post birth might not feel they need them there as much. This issue throughout the thread is more about lack of staff support than need for partners to be there and the article will struggle to separate the two issues. That said, I had a need for my partner to be there but he wasn't.

I'm autistic and I was terrified. My partner is also my carer and I did need him there BUT I needed him there because I felt so vulnerable and in such an alien and out of control environment that the endless noise, sleep deprivation due to 6 screaming babies, poor nutrition and the hyper stimulation of loads of other visitors in other bays left me verging on meltdown, which was inevitably identified as a mental health issue rather than an autistic woman struggling to cope with the environment. I needed his moral support and understanding that I wasn't able to get from staff who didn't have the time or inclination to learn about my particular needs or quirks or even autism. Side rooms in Scotland afaik aren't bookable or privately available and priority went to mums whose babies were in scbu /nicu - I got moved into a private room for one night after my mum had a word with them but had to give it up for more of a priority so was back on a ward where I had to fight with bolshy auxiliary nurses to keep my curtains closed and my environment as calm as possible. I get that this post is turning into less about the general need for partners in postnatal environments and more about making adjustment for disabled mothers (also a worthy article topic!), however, in my case, allowing my partner to stay with me would have been an adjustment I required. It's going to take me along time to recover from the anxiety and Trauma of an extended stay in a shared ward and I'm living in fear of having to return (baby was unwell so we had to stay longer and I may yet have to return) so I'm unable to wind down. -as an aside, if partners were allowed to stay with their sick as an alternative giving mums a rest, that would be great - If my partner had been able to advocate for me at times whEn I felt the midwives were pushing me into things I felt uncomfortable with but didn't have the ability or strength to argue with I would be in a much calmer less anxious place now.

They told us our baby wouldn't survive so they let me and my husband stay together

Absolutely agree with the single ward suggestions.

It's what I was trying to convey (very badly) late last night.

There's no need for an either/or situation if facilities and standards of care is improved. And I do find it sad that we as user's of the NHS are justifying the poor conditions by saying there's just not enough money, if so many the countries can manage it.

And yes agree totally with redtoothbrush

I had my baby in Sweden. Private room (nothing flash, quite tatty but very clean.) little kitchen thing just over the corridor, could make food at any time. Well looked after, joined up healthcare. Husband was charged 25 quid equivalent to stay per night.

Awful stories about men on wards is going to get you page views but it's not the real debate. The real debate is wtf is happening in our maternity services that we can't provide the basic level of healthcare seen across Europe (in richer and in poorer countries alike.) why are women on postnatal wards in the first place? There are a minority who need to be on open ward situations but not most.

The U.K. Is failing horribly on maternity care.

Everyone should have individual rooms unless there's a specific clinical need.
Then partners should stay. In the individual rooms.

It works fine in other single payer public healthcare systems in Europe, why can't we do it here?

When I had my first child I was very jealous that my husband could go home and sleep whereas I was stuck on a ward with a baby. I had no experience of caring for babies whatsoever and had hardly slept due to contractions the previous night. So I would have liked to have had him there for support.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I would have wanted other people's partners staying, particularly if they were talking or snoring, and therefore they might well have felt the same about my husband being there. It was noisy enough when everyone was visiting during the day. A private room would have been ideal. I was so glad to get home from that postnatal ward - the midwives were fine, but it was noisy, hot and the food was rubbish.

I don't think it's fair on a shared ward due to;
Quality of sleep - not that we get much.

Privacy- changing pads, dressing and nursing the baby.

Loneliness- if a mother doesn't have a partner this could trigger PND
Or if her partner has to watch existing children.

Safety- although other mothers are also a potential threat are the partners going to have crb checks who are staying with vulnerable women and babies?

Overcrowding- facilities, beds and resources.

When I had my first child I was offered to move to a labour ward in another town which doesn't provide emergency care such as sections. If there was a room available there would be a bed for dad. When I had the child and asked to be moved they said no that's not an option. This was very upsetting and I was in hospital alone with my daughter for 5 nights. All because they had not witnessed her having a bowel movement. Very depressing and isolating.

It's really not about dads staying or not, is it. It's about underfunding - too busy midwives who cannot be there for the women who need help and assistance so women need their partners there to do the job on one hand; lack of private rooms so women do not want other people's partner there on the other.

And in my opinion, also the fact that women in labour are not considered important enough to spend resources on, they are just expected to get on with it.

I had my babies in Switzerland and France - either private or double rooms, your own personal midwife, all the help and support whenever you wanted. Or just as a comparison, those are the rooms in a bog standard state hospital in Estonia, not the richest of countries, with universal health care. The fancy ones will cost you 50EUR and not Lindo Wing prices. The free rooms are for 1-3 people.
www.synnitusmaja.ee/departments/maternity-centre/maternity-department/maternity-rooms-postnatal-rooms/?lang=en

So as RedToothBrush asks, shouldn't the question be why women can't access facilities and support?

my first night in hospital my husband stayed till about one in the morning before the midwife shooed him home for some sleep because nothing was happening at that time, I was in a single room.
when I was in a shared room with four other women in the upcoming days to my section my husband left at the end of visiting time which was nine o clock, sometimes half past nine if I was particularly upset (was due for a c section 10 weeks early due to preeclampsia so naturally was upset at times) but didn't stay into the night, there was no point in him sleeping in an uncomfortable chair beside me!
after birth I had a huge single room to myself on the postnatal ward (don't think they wanted to put me into a shared room with women and their babies when I had a sick ten week early baby in icu) and even then he didn't stay during the night, he left at about ten o clock at night.

In case you are wondering the questions being asked should be:

Why are women not feeling like they are supported enough by health professionals alone?

and

Why are women who need partners with them during and after they have a baby not able to get access to the appropriate facilities and support?

Where you lead from these questions makes all the difference.

Instead by saying partners on wards, and how lots of women feel intruded on, sets up a completely different debate from the one we should REALLY be having.