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Mumsnet moderation policy

543 replies

JustineMumsnet · 11/11/2016 15:59

If you've visited Site Stuff in recent times you'll know there's been a fair bit of grousing about our moderation policy. There have been lot of calls from the SN boards in particular but elsewhere too for us to delete many more posts than we are doing at the moment. Equally some on the feminism boards have been particularly angered by the position we've adopted around transphobia.

Those of you who have been around for a bit will also know that some of these debates have been going on a long time.

Mumsnet has always believed - been founded upon - the idea that civilised debate is a broadly positive thing. That we can disagree but agree that people have a right to different opinions. That freedom of speech is in general good and that we'd rather let the conversation flow than censor it. That exposing ourselves to the widest range of arguments and opinions is generally healthier than banishing the ones we don’t like.

Increasingly you'll find that other places on the web will filter out views and information you might not like automatically - Facebook and Google both do this based on the data they have about you (which is a lot). Just take a look at the debate raging in the US right now over whether this kind of tailoring of news – some call it the “filter bubble” effect – was to blame for the election of Donald Trump. Whatever you think of Facebook’s role in sending Trump to the White House, it’s unarguably becoming increasingly hard to watch or read something that hasn't been selected for you.

We've chosen to be public, un-paywalled and welcoming to newbies with different opinions. That means from time to time we may be confronted by views that we think are outlandish and even noxious. Of course - given we're called Mumsnet - we're always going to be a space dominated by women but the only qualification we require of our users is a basic level of civility.

This doesn't mean that it's a complete free for all. Of course we do and will continue to remove posts that break our rules – for instance personal attacks and those that break the law or promote hate. But there are always going to be posts which fall into a grey area - posts that cause offence without intention, perhaps by using words in common use that some believe should be disallowed like “moron” or “idiot”. And our inclination here is to err on the side of free speech rather than censorship.

Many Mumsnetters have told us they've had their minds broadened by posts they've seen on Mumsnet and have become more tolerant and understanding as a result. We do understand it can be frustrating being told that we'd rather host a debate about why something was offensive so folks might change their mind, than delete it. We're mindful of the fact that many of our users are exhausted and often in impossibly difficult situations and would much rather people just understood or piped down - that we just deleted those comments which upset them or banned those who made them. But rightly or wrongly, that's not the Mumsnet we've chosen to be. We've chosen to be open and welcoming to new people and challenging different opinions. We've chosen to be a broad church not a narrow one.

At a time when the rise of intersectional politics often seems to be squeezing the space for public debate, when no-platforming has entered the everyday vocabulary of university campuses and social media reverberates daily to howls of outrage over some linguistic transgression or other, this seems more important than ever.

No-one is pretending that any of this stuff is easy. Rights only really mean anything when they are difficult to protect. And in the case of many of these arguments, we have deep instinctive sympathy with users calling for us to delete posts or ban certain words. We understand how anxious many who’ve battled for women’s rights feel. We understand that language plays an important part in making them feel marginalised and vulnerable. And many of us who have for years read the stirring and humbling posts on the SN boards will instinctively wish to defend parents who feel the casual, thoughtless language used by other posters is making their already hard lives harder still. We would go to the barricades with them in many ways, but not at the expense of a principle which makes Mumsnet what it is.

I think all this is worth stating because, frankly, the aggressive attitude of some Mumsnetters towards the community team in particular needs to stop. It's becoming demoralising and almost impossible to do the job. You couldn't actually hope to meet a nicer, more patient, diligent and selfless crew than the MN community team. Day in day out they do their level best to be fair, decent and consistent. Of course we get things wrong and don't always word things right - who doesn't? - and I know the majority of users know this and I'm really grateful for your support and kind words. The one thing I'm certain of, though, is that decent moderation is a big reason why Mumsnet has thrived and grown over the years.

But there are some users who, from what I've seen, are relentlessly denigrating the team in a way that can really only be described as aggressive heckling. Some of the attacks have been personal and downright nasty. In recent weeks members of the community team have been called ignorant, stupid, rude and not giving a shiny shite. The disabled members of our team have been described as tokens. I personally have been called sneering, supercilious, classist, venal and a hypocrite who’s drowning in the Kool-Aid amongst other things. (Let’s not get into a debate over whether that’s fair…)

The last thing we're saying is that we don't want feedback - we value it hugely, and we will always hold up our hands if we've messed up. (Incidentally almost none of the above critical posts have been deleted.) But, to be frank, if Mumsnet makes you that angry then maybe it's time to accept that it isn't the site for you - you probably need to acknowledge that we simply aren't and never will moderate the way you want us to. After all, we're here to make parents' lives easier and if the way we moderate raising your blood pressure on a daily basis - so much that you're calling the moderators “cunts” - then with the greatest respect I think you need to take a break.

In an increasingly polarised world of trigger warnings and safe spaces, preserving Mumsnet as a place that can host the widest debate in the most civilised fashion seems more important than ever. You’ll have to forgive me if this sounds pompous but this really is about freedom. As so often George Orwell put it best: “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

OP posts:
IPityThePontipines · 11/11/2016 19:55

Didn't loads of you bugger off to Reddit at some point.

Yep, and then they claimed MN "has been taken over by transactivists and their handmaidens".

It is utterly disingenuous to ignore this context and pretend that you are on the receiving end of unprovoked hostility

Shiny you don't seem to understand, Justine is saying quite clearly that the verbal abuse she received for booking a guest you dislike at Blogfest was not acceptable.

You have no right to tell her that it's ok for her to be verbally abused and insulted, because "she provoked you". What sort of a supposedly feminist argument is that?

FreshwaterSelkie · 11/11/2016 19:50

I get how hard and thankless it is to moderate. I used to do it on a similar site to this, so I know what a crappy task it can be, and how you can never please everyone. And I'm another who is grateful that difficult conversation can be had here - I've read stuff that's entirely changed how I look at the world, and I'm grateful for that.

But the debate over Paris Lees wasn't about moderation. It was about women feeling dismayed that Mumsnet is aligning itself with a person whose stock in trade is doing down women. And then, being told that they weren't allowed to feel that or express it, in a way that came across as really dismissive. It felt wrong that on a female dominated website, women are being told they don't know what's misogynistic.

Generally, the zeitgeist on the feminist board is for less moderation. For example, a recent thread was zapped for being derailed when most of the people who'd been insulted on it wanted to stand as a kind of handbook of derailing. It seems to me to be the opposite of what is being asked for in regard of ableism/disablism, so I'm not sure lumping them together works?

NoSquirrels · 11/11/2016 19:46

Thanks for the explanation, Did Hmm

Saucery · 11/11/2016 19:44

I couldn't make head nor tail of Reddit.

Didijustgetwinkpointshitcanned · 11/11/2016 19:42

I don't think trying to be helpful by explaining pronouns is a debate. No debate on terms from me. Grin

usual · 11/11/2016 19:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 11/11/2016 19:38

Oh please don't make me sorry for mentioning it, everyone!

It's all your fault Squirrels Wink Grin

shinynewusername · 11/11/2016 19:36

My post is of course partly prompted the hostility on the feminist boards wrt to our position on the transphobia debate

What hostility? Throughout all the debates on Trans issues, including the Spartacus threads, posters have acknowledged how hard it is to moderate and thanked MN for supporting debate when most other social media sites don't.

Any hostility at present is caused by MN's decision to invite an individual with a history of intimidating women to participate in a MN event. MN didn't need to do that - you chose to do so, knowing full well how many of us would feel. It is utterly disingenuous to ignore this context and pretend that you are on the receiving end of unprovoked hostility.

NoSquirrels · 11/11/2016 19:36

Oh please don't make me sorry for mentioning it, everyone!

OlennasWimple · 11/11/2016 19:35

I completely agree that personal attacks aimed at MNHQ members (including Justine, for that matter) are unacceptable. I think MNHQ are often stuck between a rock and a hard place when they receive reports about particular posts.

I don't think the "we think it's best to let disabilist comments stand in order to educate people" approach is particularly helpful, TBH, and I can see why pp get frustrated - but ultimately it's MN's prerogative to set the rules and we can go and play somewhere else if we don't like it. Demanding training or whatever isn't the way to engage.

The recent threads re Blogfest panellists were, I think, more to do with consistency of applying the rules: when is it acceptable to call a vile misogynist a vile misogynist?

PrettyBotanicals · 11/11/2016 19:35

At a time when the rise of intersectional politics often seems to be squeezing the space for public debate, when no-platforming has entered the everyday vocabulary of university campuses and social media reverberates daily to howls of outrage over some linguistic transgression or other, this seems more important than ever

Yes. With knobs on.

The emperor, praise be, is starkers.

I am so relieved to read this, in a world of over-wrought madness, that small still voice of calm...

Saucery · 11/11/2016 19:35

Hang on, I think I hear Justine shouting "Get aaaaht my paaaaaaab!" in the distance

VincentVL · 11/11/2016 19:33

I find it offensive when people who are not female demand to be referred to as 'she', even more so when Im told I have no choice in the matter because their right to self definition supersedes mine.

Saucery · 11/11/2016 19:32

If only the same courtesy was extended to those who prefer not to be called 'cis'

NoSquirrels · 11/11/2016 19:32

Didijust don't really want the debate on this thread, tbh, just wanted to raise the issue for MNHQ to consider in terms of moderation and clarity. The debate over terms doesn't belong on this thread, imo.

Didijustgetwinkpointshitcanned · 11/11/2016 19:28

If someone prefers she, use she. If someone prefers he, use he. If someone prefers they, use they. They might be offensive to people who prefer a certain pronoun because it's hard to tell whether they is being used to purposefully not use a preferred pronoun.

DioneTheDiabolist · 11/11/2016 19:26

Well said JustineMN.Thanks I second what has been said by PPs, most vocal is not the same as majority.

NoSquirrels · 11/11/2016 19:26

Jenny hard to explain without context of the thread but my use of 'they' possibly looked like a goady PA to Justine. I would though like clarification that 'they' is generally acceptable and not misgendering.

I would never misgender IRL but would use 'they' or 'name' to avoid he/she.

JennyHolzersGhost · 11/11/2016 19:18

Hmm NoSquirrels - I was just typing out a post saying that I always write 'they' to avoid misgendering. Is 'they/them' not acceptable ? Could an MN mod please clarify on that ?

VincentVL · 11/11/2016 19:17

Those views are shared by an awful lot of men, and the word we tend to use for them is 'misogyny'.

Cyber bullying and harassment is more than unpleasant and the problem is that many posters on Mumsnet, a large online forum for parents, expect a harder line on it than calling it 'unpleasant' then dismissing it as the bully has probably had a hard time in the past.

And again, thats the sort of response that is being called flippant. I dont think you would be as flippant if this was about someone else rather than Paris Lees, and I dont think its because they are trans or because they are a guest of yours. I suspect now that you have a personal relationship with them which you are not disclosing which is why you invited them to Blogfest and why you are making them unaccountable and why you have changed the rules on 'personal attacks' to include any posts which call them a misogynist.

Saucery · 11/11/2016 19:17

Using an individual's name neatly sidesteps any misgendering and can't be called harassment. Smile

Datun · 11/11/2016 19:16

Justine

I'm sure I would be more polite in real life.

No-one likes hurting people and everyone has a story.

And there you have it.

God, if only I ruled the world.

TiggyD · 11/11/2016 19:16

You could seek independent legal advice, but that would mean hearing you're wrong so you avoid it don't you?

NoSquirrels · 11/11/2016 19:15

Thank you Justine. I agree with your stance, and like many PP really appreciate the MNHQ line on free speech. I also appreciate that you respond to and consider your audience when many sites do not. In part, this is why posters feel 'entitled' (to use that great MN phrase) to be heard and are so passionately enraged when you get it 'wrong'. Attacks on mods not on at all.

It's the quality of debate that means people stick around & lots of views makes for quality debate. I don't want a site that reflects me back to me, I want somewhere that will make me stop and think.

Fwiw, you deleted one of my posts where I corrected a 'she' pronoun to 'they' in regard to PL. I was pretty cross at the time, as I cannot accept that 'they' in regard to trans people is misgendering or a PA. On reflection I understand why you deleted that particular post, though it seemed totally tame & reasonable when I wrote it. But I would like a more robust general guideline on this 'misgendering' thing, as words on a screen are all we have to get our points across so I'd prefer to do it properly.

TiggyD · 11/11/2016 19:14

I think there's a generally accepted definition of transphobia, Miranda - intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people. - J-Mum

Ultimately, the definition you have to stick to is the legal one isn't it?

Try this police site: www.report-it.org.uk/homophobic_and_transphobic_hate_crime

From the site:
"What is harassment?

Harassment is any unwelcome comments (written or spoken) or conduct which:

violates an individual's dignity; and/or
creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment.

Harassment can take many forms including violence, threats, abuse, and damage to property. It can involve verbal abuse and name calling, offensive graffiti or post and can be received via text message, emails or social networking sites like Facebook or MySpace.

It may cause physical injury, mental stress, anxiety, or insecurity. It can also occur for a variety of reasons, including race, religious belief, sexual orientation, gender identity or disability.

Harassment is a criminal offence. If you are being harassed, report it."

Is calling transwomen "he" on Mumsnet a criminal offence? Yes. Telling the Police or a court that you've defined transphobia and you're fine with it will not impress them.

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