Please can we have a Trans topic?

I so agree with this Mango. Would I allow my son to wear a dress to primary school in these times? Possibly not, because of the danger of being targeted by trans trained professionals. Which would make him MORE likely to say 'in that case I want to be a girl!' But 10 years ago it was no big deal.

I'd word it as transsexual and gender-nonconformist - 'transvestite' generally also you're turned on by crossdressing. A woman who wants to reject a stereotypically feminine uniform and wear trousers, or not be expected to wear high heels and makeup isnt 'transvestite'.

It shouldn't really be that gender nonconformists should get protection anyway - it should be that enforcing gender stereotypes is abolished.

Errol, that's where it's all gone wrong imo.
By putting transvestite & transsexual under the same umbrella.

The only way someone can dress or present as they choose nowadays is to 'be' transgender.
With rigid uniform rules in various jobs (and also the unofficial 'uniform' rules in our everyday work) a person cannot just 'be' or present as they wish; the only protection offered wrt protected characteristics is transgender.

If a man wanted to wear a frock & makeup to work in (for e.g.) the armed forces, he couldn't and isn't allowed - he is forced to conform to the gender presentation that has been constructed by society; he could only present as he wanted to by declaring himself as transgender.

If the wording of the protected characteristics was changed from 'transgender' to 'transsexual & transvestite' then no-one would have to be 'transgender' anymore iyswim.

The whole thing has become too convoluted now, at the expense of women (as per usual).

Thank you. It's most confusing.

Garth - afaik transvestite still just means cross- dresser. People who have medical interventions to change their bodies to be more like the other sex are 'transsexuals '. Until relatively recently that was it... You might (regardless of sexuality have butch women or effeminate men - gender nonconformists. But now theres's 'transgender' which seems to have encompassed the previous 'trans' but also people who just 'identify' in some way as being the opposite sex. Someone can declare themselves to be 'trans' with no sort of medical diagnosis.

And it's retrospective. The director of Bridget Jones is the first woman to have a successful trilogy in the box office. Except she isn't, because the wachowski brothers are considered to have been women when they made the matrix although they didn't transition until way after.
Meaningless.

A trans woman is now generally considered to be any male who identifies as a woman. Doesn't particularly require any treatment, hormones or surgery.

I'm somewhat confused with the trans labels. Is a trans woman a post-op transvestite? Or a transvestite?

So transwoman is the word

Trans is not an adjective for woman unless they are ftt

You learn something new everyday....

Manatee - trans is a prefix denoting 'across'. Transgender, transsexual, transatlantic, transpennine , transvestite.... So transwoman is a perfectly grammatical construct.

Manatee - I only had my attention drawn to this issue of spaces the other day. I think the reasoning goes "trans woman" = trans used as adjective, the usage preferred by transactivists, indicating that they're just a subset of women, versus "transwoman" = MTT, different from a woman.

I wasn't aware there was a difference between transwoman and trans woman. I write trans woman because trans is an abbreviation of transgender and (I don't think) it would be grammatically correct to write 'transgenderwoman'.

Well if there are people who prefer "they" as a singular pronoun, then it must be misgendering to use they for someone who considers themself he/she.
I go with their name 99% of the time. It looks clunky, but at least I'm neither wrong nor transphobic. Though of course you then get those who think that even avoiding using any pronouns is transphobic....

And how can I complain about Lauren Jeska being referred to as a woman rather than a transwoman if I use the pronoun 'she' throughout

I use transwoman and 'they' or name. I won't use trans woman, woman or she.

Some people are not happy with transwoman, and prefer trans woman. It's a minefield!

There are probably people who wouldn't be happy with that, but I don't see it as misgendering.

Ok so would this...

Xxxxxx is not a woman, they are a transwoman

...be misgendering

I am trying to get it clear in my head.

Manatee I would do the same. Probably.

Is calling a trans man or trans woman a trans man or trans woman, misgendering? If I won't call a trans woman a woman am I misgendering them?

I don't think so. I think saying trans woman or trans man is absolutely fine.

Misgendering is a weird concept especially when you don't believe trans women/men are women/men. I think there's a difference though between referring to people in the news like Jeska as a man and referring to regular trans people to their face with the wrong pronoun. For some reason I think the first one is fine but the second one is not (even though I don't believe a trans woman is a she, it feels mean to say 'he' to their face). In reality I think I'd just avoid using pronouns altogether and only use the person's name, so I didn't have to 'lie' or use the pronouns.

I suppose it's like if someone asked me to call them by a ridiculous nickname instead of their name I'd do it to be respectful to the person, but I'd still think it was a ridiculous name.

Maddie not madrid

I think it's mis-sexing (thanks monkey) to call a transwoman a trans woman or a woman. Madrid and pro trans say it's misgendering to say that a trans woman is a man.

Is calling a trans man or trans woman a trans man or trans woman, misgendering? If I won't call a trans woman a woman am I misgendering them?

Misgendering is a strange concept. Those of us who believe that 'he' and 'she' are used for male and female people (and animals also) and reject the concept of innate gender identity can be asked to use chosen pronouns but we know we are lying. So either we use chosen pronouns and make ourselves liars and hypocrites or we don't and we make ourselves transphobes. We cannot win in this situation.
I despair of a situation where naming something for what is objectively is makes a person a hateful transphobe.