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I am still Spartacus

186 replies

OscarDeLaYenta · 01/09/2016 19:14

Seems timely. Sadly still required.

I am Oscar, and I remain Spartacus. Really cannot be arsed to C&P or restate my position.... I shouldn't need to have to state the need for language to reflect reality in the first place.....

(Belated shout-out to seek for brilliantly using the Spartacus analogy in the first place!)

OP posts:
makeslogicalsensetome2 · 03/09/2016 22:26

Just repeating what I wrote elsewhere .
My ex had lots of self loathing which is why they felt so much better when they were femme. They didn't have their male personality making them feel bad and their female side had no history to came back and bite them.
So she felt terrific and put it down to finally being 'her' authentic self. No psychiatrists talked about the motivation, they just went with it.

Taking hormones does change brain chemistry and amplify dysphoria so its hard to not want to continue transition while taking them.

If people only see male and female they think they only have those to choose from. If you don't want to be male their only option as they see it is female. As someone commented on the link below - 'I didn't know I didn't have to be trans to be dysphoric'.
We are trained to think of family in terms of only 2 sexes so of course I can see people's reasoning although I think there should be an alternative to synthetic hormones /surgery.

This survey is said to be the largest so far, which speaks to the lack of research on the subject.

Female detransition and re identification: Survey results and interpretation.
direct link-
guideonragingstars.tumblr.com/post/149877706175/female-detransition-and-reidentification-survey

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 03/09/2016 21:55

akkakk
I am sure, in about half an hour (30 mins for you yanks) we will be well advised of the place to discuss this and the Lord

But respectfully, I decline

GrouchoSparks · 03/09/2016 21:43

I'm GrouchoSparks. I'm delurking. I'm not cis. And MNHQ - you disappoint me with your weak and worthless response to genuine concerns. I'm also a parent who lurks and you've given no thought whatsoever to me. I will leave this (otherwise brilliantly supportive) site over this, along with many others.

akkakk · 03/09/2016 21:40

Hi, IBelieve, possibly not the right place for discussion :)
The Bible though is the origin of defining men as men and women as women, so could be seen to originate this whole debate...
I was also trying to be sensitive as a man on a thread predominantly female, and trying to show hat I am not some stereotypical male chauvinist, sorry if you were upset...

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 03/09/2016 21:29

Hello
Bible stuff is not going to help
But thanks

akkakk · 03/09/2016 21:19

Fantastic to see this...
I am male, I hope that it is okay to post on here, but I completely agree, biology is biology you are physically what you are born, chromosome / bits etc.
I have no issue with anyone living as they wish, pink, blue or any other colour clothes it matters not, but they have no right to re-define everyone else in some misguided belief that they are something they can never be...
I feel terribly sad for those who have difficulty in coming to terms with how they were born, but as a Christian I believe that God made us male or female not something random with a choice as to what we should be...

And can I just point out that virtually all the strong characters in the Bible / those who sorted out the issues, got it right, did what was important... were women! Most of the men made a mess of it!

I am proud to stand alongside others and declare I am Spartacus

WeDoNotSow · 03/09/2016 20:35

Earlier this year I read a trans thread and wondered what the big deal was.
Why couldn't people just be accepting, live and let live etc.
Why did it matter really where people wee'd?

Then I read a bit more.

And the more I read, the more I become Sparticus...

Sex is a scientific fact.
Gender is not.

Acknowledging gender and not sex is not only factually incorrect, but damaging to women.

SparticusDoesNotSow

Lightbulbon · 03/09/2016 19:12

Still Spartacus

ErrolTheDragon · 03/09/2016 18:55

Wonder if that manager would have stopped a transwoman from entering the womens loos. Im sure they wont dare to now.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/09/2016 16:11

In terms of the bathroom debate which is often deemed to be a theoretical, not real issue:

www.thenational.scot/news/city-centre-bar-sparks-anger-over-petulant-apology-to-an-alleged-transphobic-incident.21933

StatisticallyChallenged · 03/09/2016 15:22

And claiming to be infertile women who are having the same experience as actual women who are infertile.

As a woman, you pretty much grow up expecting to be able to have children (unless you've been told otherwise for some medical reason.) It's just a reality which we take for granted when we're young - I'm a woman, I can have babies. We spend a large chunk of our youth/adult life trying to ensure we don't get pregnant. Then, for some women, they try and suddenly discover that something they'd assumed would be easy isn't, and that their body doesn't work the way they expected it to.

This is not the same experience as a transfeminine who, unless they are actually delusional, has never expected to experience pregnancy and so is not experiencing that same sense of loss. That they lose the ability to reproduce (as men, rather than women) is down to a choice they have made. It's just not the same and to try and co-opt the narrative and support that exists for infertile women is selfish bollocks IMO.

GarlicMist · 03/09/2016 15:01

It's totally not a tangent, Stat, it's a core issue. Also see: Transwomen airily dismissing the kids they fathered as a man, in order to wail over the agonies of being a 'woman' who can't get pregnant.

GarlicMist · 03/09/2016 14:57

Sian, that "überpoor" analogy's fantastic!

Although it's a thought experiment, it perfectly highlights the absurdity of denying your privilege in order to gain privileged rights among a less-privileged class. (Confused!)

Any minute now, I'll probably find out it's a real thing and I've committed yet another crime of mis-identifying someone as who they actually are.

Call me Spartacus.

StatisticallyChallenged · 03/09/2016 13:39

Glad it's not just me that sees the hypocrisy.

Kropotkinator · 03/09/2016 13:09

Mmm. I had the same issue. Went to the doctor at the age of 18 wanting to be sterilised becuase I didn't want to get pregnant and hated kids (the thought of pregnancy disgusts me and terrifies me still, due to my own issues with body, bullying etc.). Doctor said no as I might want to get pregnant later and I might change my mind (the idea of kids is nice now, but the pregnancy thing I can't get over - so still no kids). I was also a tomboy as I said above.

Had I been a teenager now I probably would have insisted I was trans too. The thought that there are little "me s" out there being coerced into transitioning quite frankly terrifies me.

BeyondASpecialSnowflake · 03/09/2016 07:58

Similar, though less serious, with breast augmentation/reduction. You are not trusted to say it is affecting your physical/mental health, unless you are transgender.

StatisticallyChallenged · 03/09/2016 05:25

A bit of a tangent, but it's late and I'm awake so...

Week or two ago I read a thread on here, woman in her mid twenties who wanted to be sterilised but had been refused by her doctors. These pop up fairly regularly in different guises - this particular woman already had children but sometimes it's women who don't. Her husband also asked about a vasectomy, was also refused. The refusal was on the basis that they were too young and couldn't be sure they wouldn't want more children - this seems to be a really common reason for refusing.

Yet...a man or woman could easily undergo far more radical procedures via transitioning, also leaving them sterile, at a far younger age. Why are women being refused the right to control their fertility whilst we're simultaneously allowing people to remove any hint of their reproductive organs because of transgenderism? How can we say a woman (or man) doesn't know their own mind well enough to be sure they don't want (more) children yet say others can "change sex"?

As far as I can tell this approach to sterilisation is very widespread.

PageStillNotFound404 · 03/09/2016 03:18

This from a PP sums it up for me:

"I don't feel like a woman, I just feel like me. I have no idea what 'feeling like a woman' feels like.

I am a woman because chromosomes. I could not change this if I tried.

I am not transphobic.

I am still Spartacus, and I will not stand by whilst women are silenced."

AnnaForbes · 03/09/2016 01:32

Such brilliant posts on here. Rock on Spartaci.

I just looked up my first posts here. they are from 2001. In all those years I have posted about miscarriages, giving birth, breastfeeding, taking pills to conceive, taking pills to postpone a period before a holiday, taking pills to reduce heavy periods and, soon I expect I will be posting about menopause. I am a woman and want to share or seek advice with others who have the same body parts and issues arising from ownership of these body parts. My chromosomes dictate I'm a woman and its dangerous fantasy to pretend otherwise.

I'm SpartacusForbes.

AlpacaLypse · 03/09/2016 00:53

I'm still AlpacaLypse. Biologically and emotionally female. Although of course only the biological bit is provable.

I don't know what it feels like to be male.

Although I did once have a very odd dream involving male + male gay sex and woke up feeling very turned on. However, I did not feel any overwhelming urge to get myself surgically transformed into some semblance of a male and then go chasing after either of the two objects of that particular rather frisky sexual fantasy. That would be rather silly and delusional and frankly a bit sad... oh wait?

You can't make anyone do what you want them to do by throwing your toys out of the pram.

Also trying to re-define yourself as 'Trans' because for some reason you're embarrassed by the term 'Cross Dresser' is silly.

If you have a functional penis and fancy women, it means that you are a heterosexual man who likes dressing up in women's clothing, not that you are a lesbian born in a man's body.

If you asked from a truthful position rather than squawked 'Cotton Ceiling' you might actually get somewhere. Us biologically female women quite value honesty in our relationships y'know.

ExitPursuedBySpartacus · 03/09/2016 00:40

Signing in.

AndNowItsSeven · 03/09/2016 00:28

As Helen Reddy said, I am woman.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=MUBnxqEVKlk

SianSteans · 03/09/2016 00:23

Still Spartacus. This blog post from a couple of years ago really hit home for me and I think articulates this whole farce so well.
feministsunknown.wordpress.com/2014/08/17/i-am-uberpoor/

"I’ve always known I was working class, even before I had the words to articulate it. Aged three, I used to call my dinner “tea”. My father, a high court judge, hated it but I kept on doing it all the same. I’ve no idea how I just knew the word “tea” was working class for “dinner”. I guess it’s something that was just in me.

Back in the 1980s no one ever discussed working-class children who’d been falsely assigned middle-class status at birth. It was as though we didn’t exist. Because of this I’d retreat into a fantasy world where I’d been swapped at birth and Den and Angie off Eastenders were my real mum and dad. I couldn’t talk to my parents about this. My mother, a bus conductor’s daughter and the youngest of six children, was always telling me how lucky I was with my holidays abroad and ballet lessons. I don’t think she meant to hurt me; it was just her identified-poor-at-birth privilege that made her such an evil bitch. The children on the estate were even worse. They’d call me posh and make fun of my double-barrelled name. They wouldn’t let me play with them on the swings or smoke fags underneath the slide. I grew used to being excluded because of my class but it hurt.

There’s a word for people like me: überpoor (don’t worry if you’ve never heard of it; your ignorance just means you’re a privileged bigot). Basically, it describes the state of being poor while enduring the added oppression that comes with having money and a middle-class background. The queer poverty theorist J’amie Olivier came up with it in his brilliant work Whipping Chav. If you’ve not read it, please do. It explains so much about how poor people are not oppressed due to having no money but due to “poorphobia”: a widespread antipathy towards dog racing, Lambrini and the Waitrose Essentials range. Hardest hit by this are the überpoor: people who have been wrongly assigned middle- or upper-class status but are in fact poor. For centuries, such people have simply been invisible. No one has wanted to talk about us and our needs.

Thankfully, the release of Park Life in the mid-1990s came as something of a tipping point for überpoor people. Damon Albarn’s affected mockney accent finally proved to the world that yes, we did exist. To paraphrase Paris Lees on Conchita Wurst, Damon wasn’t middle-class or a millionaire pop star or any of these restrictive categories: he was just Damon, showing what it means to break through all the barriers! Obviously there was some opposition to such an image of liberation. Vile bigots such as Jarvis Cocker started releasing überpoorphobic anthems such as Common People, erasing our lived experience by claiming we merely thought “that poor is cool”. I always felt the NUS should have no-platformed Pulp due to that line about how we would “never understand how it means to live [our lives] with no meaning or control”. I never forgave them for letting the band play at the £400-a-head Cambridge May Ball I attended in 1996. The Bollinger leaves a bitter taste when there’s some northern-accent-privileged tosser up on a stage behind you suggesting that you don’t even know your own class identity. Seriously, just listen to Different Class (content warning: überpoorphobia); it’s as though people like Cocker want poor people to be oppressed.

I’ve since worked hard to live my life as an überpoor person in a society in which our needs are often overlooked. One of the worst things is being continually mis-classed. For instance, last week my cleaner accidentally called me “madam” rather than “you slaaaag!”. I felt so erased I had to sack her there and then, single mother or not.

The credit crunch and age of austerity have triggered something of a backlash. I’ve tried signing on but each time I am asked to provide documentation to prove that I don’t in fact have a £50,000 trust fund. When I’ve argued this is irrelevant – I’m a fucking human being, not numbers on a bank statement – the ignorant staff at the Job Centre have suggested I am not “really” poor. What is most upsetting is that they then allow other assigned-middle-class-at-birth people to sign on simply because such people don’t have money any more. Like, how do they even know these people are genuinely überpoor and not just rich people who’ve got rid of all their cash because they’re essentialist bigots who believe that’s the only way to be poor? I call these people überpoorscum. To be honest, I don’t think they should be welcome in überpoor communities. It just creates an extra pressure on the rest of us not to be incredibly wealthy.

My hope is that eventually, more and more assigned-poor-at-birth people are able to recognise how privileged they are, welcome us into their communities and hand over all their lager and pool tables. So many APAB prople think it’s enough just not to mind if I rent a flat above a shop, cut my hair and get a job, but this implies being überpoor isn’t in fact more valid and painful than simply being poor. It’s essential that these poor people put us first given that we bear the double burden of not just being überpoor but of having lots of money while being überpoor and hence being mis-classed (it never ceases to amaze me, by contrast, how welcoming the rich are to the überrich, allowing them to adopt plumy accents while continuing to do all the former’s domestic work). The activism is increasing, though. I’ve recently set up a change.org petition to try to get Cocker’s current Radio 6 show cancelled on the basis that mainstream media should not be giving a platform to überpoorphobes. The final thing I want to do is sleep with common people.

Common people like you."

Kropotkinator · 02/09/2016 17:35

GarlicMist

Also not the "there are 14 different classes" of Blairism, with there are "40 different genders" of 3rd wave (way? lol) feminism. One can argue that while Blair seemingly gave his generation and class an escape from the chains of traditional class (he tried so hard to mimic the lower-middle class at every turn- and perhaps identified with them and their aspiration), it was ultimately the next generation that was hurt by the policies.

I see the same thing happening here with gender, where one fairly well off generation and indeed class (white, predominantly middle class intellectuals) are setting up the next generation of women for massive falls both economically and rights-wise.

I have lots of theories about political postmodernism too, but that's really hair raising and far too complicated for a Friday evening. Confused

GarlicMist · 02/09/2016 16:56

Krop, your point about parallel class/individual struggles is huge!

It could stand a great deal more exploration.