I Would Like To Propose A Solution To The Trans Threads Problem

Of course I don't think FWR should run threads past me, venusinscorpio. I was just pointing out that people might just turn off the whole topic because of this one issue.

Your patronising response to someone who does not think this is the No 1 issue is unnecessary.

IPity even if one were to concede your claim that the cotton ceiling is a political issue rather than a personal one (which I don't: I have read enough first person accounts by trans activists to know that they want to pester lesbians into having sex with them) it is still problematic.

Excuse me if I cast this in terms of MTT because I'm heterosexual. Suppose the younger me, aged about 30, is clubbing and starts to make out with a good looking, if rather slender and androgynous looking bloke. We go home together. It gets to the point of taking trousers and pants off. I am confronted with a vulva. Is my reaction:

1. that's of no more relevance than the issue of finding a penis which might or might not be circumcised - genitals come in all sorts of external appearances;

2. Hell no, that's not what I signed up for here;

3. Oh god, my instinctive reaction is no, but that makes me a transphobe, oh god I'm a bad person?

My feeling is a tiny minority might genuinely feel (1). Well over 90% of us would feel (2). Even understood as a political claim rather than a personal one, the cotton ceiling rhetoric is a concerted attempt at social engineer designed to try to gas light as many women as possible in that 90% plus into feeling (3) rather than (2).

So even understood as a political claim, it's still fucking offensive. (And it also shows why trans activists are so keen on the idea - because the fact that most of the human race's sexuality leads them to think along the lines of (2) when confronted with an unexpected vulva or penis when they were expecting the opposite is precisely why actually the whole idea that transwomen are women in every important sense of the word is such an obvious crock of shit - the emperor really has no clothes on).

hex

So sorry i didnt even think about you being annoyed or upset by that

It just struck me as being a funny passive aggressive comment

I sincerely apologise

I have FWR hidden now because "some transactivist has called women/ a part of their anatomy something despicable on reddit/ Twitter" are the common FWR threads on Active at the moment.

Your choice. Or do you think people should run FWR threads past you first?

The point is that you were talking utter bollocks, IPity. It seems you've googled a bit now. That's good.

Cotton ceiling is a theory.

It isn't just one meeting that happened years ago.

And I should care what Paris Lees thinks, because?
Did someone die and make her queen of all transwomen? Yet, you all seem to hang on her every word and statement more than trans people do.

Also far as "Plenty of trans bloggers and trans allies agree with the logic and concept".
Plenty of trans bloggers isn't a quantifiable statement, is it?

And as far as logic and concept precisely no one (sensible) is saying it's about forcing lesbians to have sex with trans women.

This is the widely used definition:
"The cotton ceiling is a theory proposed by trans porn star and activist Drew DeVeaux to explain the experiences queer trans women have with simultaneous social inclusion and sexual exclusion within the broader queer women's communities".

To explain the experiences. So as Dion said upthread, "people talking about other people not being into them".

All this time and energy being spent on whispers around the internet. It's tragic.

Dione and Rufus - forgive my slowness, but why is that directed at me?

I am a feminist. I have FWR hidden now because "some transactivist has called women/ a part of their anatomy something despicable on reddit/ Twitter" are the common FWR threads on Active at the moment.

I'd rather hide a trans topic than FWR. The effort to raise awareness of this one issue might hinder raising awareness of other feminist issues.

Also on the 'this will never affect you' thing...FGM will likely never affect me or anyone I know given I was lucky enough to be born in England rather than the middle east where its common. A bloke in a womens changing room wouldn't bother me personally, but this is because so far, I have had no bad experiences with men (rape, violence etc) and so on. Doesn't mean I don't give a shit about the people it would affect though.

IPity, it's not just about what one-off workshop led to the phrase "cotton ceiling", as you would know if you bothered to do a 5 second google. Plenty of trans bloggers and trans allies agree with the logic and concept, and Paris Lees thinks it is "a cheeky play on words". Rather than the obvious homophobic misogyny it is.

"That you don't give a shit about groups of men openly discussing how to make lesbians have sex with them on social media."

Where is this happening?

Don't say Cotton Ceiling. Cotton Ceiling was a meeting four years ago which 7, yes 7, transwomen attended.

It is just as offensive and reductive though - calling us haters but in a sly way that probably just scrapes the bar of what is considered acceptable in the talk guidelines.

Exactly.

Women who express an opposing view are "shrieking"?

It was in response to someone saying how dreadfully terrible it was that people were being called "handmaidens"'. My point was that it's just as offensive to call someone "transphobic" for believing that trans women are men. Both are personal judgements on others. And I do think people often have a rather silly idea of what should constitute "transphobia", hence my use of the word "shrieking". It's meant to convey my contempt for these views.That's my opinion, like you have a different one.

Sorry, just reread the OP and the suggestion is for a thread for people who hate that people are trans. It is just as offensive and reductive though - calling us haters but in a sly way that probably just scrapes the bar of what is considered acceptable in the talk guidelines.

OK OP, so you aren't interested in this particular aspect of women's rights. Fair enough. You think that women exchanging with each other on this particular aspect of their rights is "dicking about on the internet". Fine, whatever, bully for you.

There are plenty of MNers and other women who feel the same as you.

I'm not going to patronize you by suggesting that you don't get the issues or that you are ignorant of them or anything else. I take you at your word that you just don't give a shit about them. That you don't give a shit about groups of men openly discussing how to make lesbians have sex with them on social media. I totally believe you OP - you couldn't give a shiny one.

We heard you.

Lots of us do give a shit though and I don't see why that bothers you. I thought you didn't care?!

Your OP and the thread titles you suggest are not very nice and pretty patronizing and insulting towards other women on this forum. The suggestion that there needs to be a thread for posters who hate transpeople is offensive. I'm kinda surprised that MNHQ have let it stand actually - it is hardly in the ethos of the site. Perhaps nobody cares enough to report it though.

Sorry felas - Ipity is right, it was the Reddit thread specifically mentioning MNHQ. I've become confused with so many different threads.

There's a post on the 'This is bullshit' thread as well - something along the lines of 'I'm sure one of the MN handmaidens will report this thread and get it deleted'. I know I've seen handmaiden in relation to trans threads elsewhere too but I specifically remember that post as the NN relates to something I love and I was irrationally disappointed it was associated with a post like that

Trans stuff is like Christmas.
There's a whole topic for it so people can avoid but some fucker will still put it in chat so hey ho what to do.

There is a whole topic for most things though I think? Do people get annoyed if someone posts about breastfeeding in chat, about SEN, about illness, about gardening, etc etc? If not, then why are only people who post about christmas (or in this case trans issues) 'fuckers'?

I genuinely do not understand the issue. There have been a few threads on transpeople yes. I do not know anything about this 'makeup' thread that people are talking about and can't find it. The thread about the vulva necklace had ONE post that mentioned trans in 5 pages, yet this is a big issue apparently?

I find most wedding threads boring, child support issues don't affect me, breastfeeding threads upset me in a way as I was unsuccessful doing it, MIL threads are just bloody irritating most of the time...but I don't psis and moan on about them and say they should all be put in their ow sections. Nor moan about a wedding thread popping up on AIBU or chat..if noone could discuss issues that have their own section, what exactly would chat and AIBU contain..I wonder?

venus "shrieking". Really? Women who express an opposing view are "shrieking"?

felasclock - The handmaidens, is what we were called on a radfem reddit. Apparently all of MN has been taken over by TA's and their handmaidens.

But, if you look up handmaiden as one word, you'll find it in use a lot on MN.

dione

Dont agree with what you are saying but i did like

Those of you having conversations elsewhere on the web, would you please pass the details to Hex. Thanks.

Completely pointless post of mine, but it did make me snigger

come I've been reading that thread and also just advanced search but can't see anyone calling MNHQ hand maidens

Obviously people feel passionate about these issues and concerns. It doesn't change the actual issues whether or not you personally feel "alienated".

I haven't called anyone transphobic and I certainly am not shrieking. And I do care about the erosion of women's rights but I'm one of the people who's been alienated by the aggression and accusations levied towards anyone who does not align themselves to exactly what the louder voices on MN are saying about this issue.

And? It's just as antagonistic to go around shrieking "transphobic" at people who are concerned about the creeping erosion of women's rights.