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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

991 replies

OlennasWimple · 30/08/2016 22:23

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

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19
BeyondASpecialSnowflake · 06/09/2016 09:24

Sorry, back that up a second... A transwoman who is post-op is 'generally' considered cis?! Confused

The detransitioners - do they become trans again while waiting to detransition? And then cis again once it's done?!

StatisticallyChallenged · 06/09/2016 09:21

That's exactly what I thought would happen though because part of the issue is that certain TRA don't want us to have a different word or expression to distinguish between trans and non trans. So initially it was trans woman vs woman, then tw said they are women so it became biological or born woman, then they said they were born women so they landed us with cis, now they want cis too. It just demonstrates that it's not about the word choice it's about the existence of a word or phrase which expresses any difference. We need to be able to express that difference even between people who have transitioned and born women.

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 06/09/2016 07:28

Because it's used in a derogatory manner.

Felascloak · 06/09/2016 07:10

I read something yesterday where trans women were discussing whether they were cis once they had SRS. General feeling was yes because their sex now matched their gender. It was upsetting some of the posts SRS transwomen because they felt excluded. Shows that Cis is controversial even for trans women who get called it.

nooka · 06/09/2016 01:49

The definition of cis is fucked up partly because the definition of trans has become so fucked up as terminology that used to mean a transsexual has changed.

If transgender means someone who doesn't behave or think in accordance with the stereotypes society has determined are masculine/feminine in line with their male/female body then a very high proportion of people are transgender. In fact truly 'cis' people are probably quite unusual (and they would likely only be cis in some countries as gender roles vary so much). So it becomes almost a meaningless term.

If trans really means people with dysphoria about their sexed body then it doesn't need a special opposite word, it is an mental health disorder, so people who are not trans then would be the equivalent of able minded (I don't think that there is such a word, it sounds like all sorts of wrong, but that's because mental health issues are so stigmatised). I don't really understand why transactivists get so angry about this way of thinking, if the condition gets reclassified one of the the major effects will be that in countries like the States there will be no pathway to treatment anymore (and I'm sure insurance companies would be delighted as the bill for lifelong hormone therapy plus surgeries isn't trivial).

If it's people with issues about gender, gender stereotypes and gender policing then feminist should be the right term, but instead people have chosen, been persuaded or coerced into to change their bodies which I think is a very maladaptive coping mechanism.

ftw · 06/09/2016 00:56

By the definition of 'genderqueer' I am exactly that.

So. We should all identify as genderqueer (I don't like make up, clothes, heels) so we can't be cissed or TERFed and then as genderqueer people we can start campaigning for spaces/services to be provided along sex lines.

Voilà.

Fixed it.

QueenLaBeefah · 05/09/2016 22:48

Anyone interested in the legalisation of prostitution in Getmany should really watch a documentary called Mega Brothels.

www.channel4.com/programmes/the-mega-brothel

Anyway who thinks capitalism has the best interest of sex workers as its main consideration are utterly delusional.

almondpudding · 05/09/2016 21:40

Laura, yes, there are heterosexual people, homosexual, bisexual, asexual...

So we have words that describe something about those different groups.

But cisgender is an incorrect description of most people, which is why they don't want to use it.

Memoires · 05/09/2016 21:24

SmashingTurnips, great post. Star

venusinscorpio · 05/09/2016 20:38

The brothel owners (men) are the ones making the money because most women IN the brothel had to pay a flat fee just to enter it and then they have to be violated by at least 4 to 8 men in order just to break even.

Yes, and in many of the brothels men can pay a flat fee too, so they can consume different women all night like an all you can eat buffet.

Trigger warning, some of the women's stories are horrifying.

www.spiegel.de/international/germany/human-trafficking-persists-despite-legality-of-prostitution-in-germany-a-902533-2.html

JedRambosteen · 05/09/2016 20:19

Thank you HouseMouseQueen from me too - it is interesting to hear how the legalisation process elsewhere has not helped women.

SmashingTurnips · 05/09/2016 20:18

HouseMouseQueen - it's nice of you to apologize for derailing but I for one don't think you are derailing. Because it's all part of the same thing. It's the state of society today which is a state of neoliberal identity individualistic choice politics. It's the state and status of women and women's rights today. Legalized prostitution and legalized "sex changes" are both rooted in the modern face of misogyny, toxic masculinity and hypermasculinity and girls and women as the second sex / second class sex class.

It's all part of women hating.

WankingMonkey · 05/09/2016 20:12

HouseMouseQueen rather...sorry read the first line of post as username Hmm

WankingMonkey · 05/09/2016 20:12

Thats another issue it seems MN is teaching me about. I always thought it would be better for the women if everything was legal and such. I never thought of it that way micro.

Atenco · 05/09/2016 20:09

The only thing that should be legal about prostitution in my book, is that the women shouldn't be prosecuted, but I would love to see all the rest of them banged up for a good long time.

JedRambosteen · 05/09/2016 20:06

Oh yes, Kaffe Fasset's designs are fab.

One of the most prolific knitters in my aquaintance is male. He knitted some lovely matinee jackets for our mutual friend's baby.

Gender stereotyping is really shitty. My eldest son put nail varnish on at his summer playscheme when he was hanging out with the girls whilst he was waiting for DH to turn up at the end of the afternoon. I'm ashamed to admit I made him take it off before bed as there were kids there from the new school he was about to move to & I was worried about him getting bullied about it later in the year. I was cross with myself for reinforcing the same old gendered cobblers. It was really funky nail varnish too (bright orange). Bollocks to the gender binary. Angry

HouseMouseQueen · 05/09/2016 19:33

MICROFERRET

I deal with that level of ignorance re: prostitution all the time by men on the left who think we should legalize prostitution and that will poof make it safe.

When I see comments like Fruits I'm used to it. In fact, I had this very argument just last night online with men on the left.

They are incapable of seeing prostitution for what it truly is: a result of the disenfranchisement of females. They have no clue what's happened in countries that have legalized it, like Germany, where there is so much sex trafficking and suffering because the rates have dropped due to so much competition. Women there are getting the price of a MC Donalds meal.

I had one guy on the left tell me that he went to Germany in the 70's and that prostituted women 'pay taxes.' You can't imagine the look on my face when he admitted he buys women and that everything's totally great because 'they pay taxes.'

Truth is, they don't pay taxes because there is no way to afford it once legalization kicks in. The brothel owners (men) are the ones making the money because most women IN the brothel had to pay a flat fee just to enter it and then they have to be violated by at least 4 to 8 men in order just to break even. So most prostituted women don't live in the brothel and they certainly DO NOT pay taxes.

Yet, this knobhead lefty male was ADAMaNT that 'everything is fine.'

If you listen to the major lefty 'male atheist' shows on Youtube, for example Kyle Kulinsky's program, he readily admits that prostitution should be legal. I bet Kyle thinks he's a feminist too. It's shameful.

Again, sorry for the derail, but I dont' want to be rude and not respond to posters who directly mention me.

WinchesterWoman · 05/09/2016 19:23

Knitting lad needs to check out kaffe fassett!

LumpySpacedPrincess · 05/09/2016 19:10

Twatbadging knitting is cool, it's ace that your son loves to knit. I honestly thought things would get better and better, not slide down to rock bottom stereotypes which harms both sexes. I swear someone up top has decided to give women a kicking and they are using the trans movement to deliver said kicking.

I have a girl who is into traditional male things and she gets stick, I fear for the future.

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 05/09/2016 17:04

Yep. I sort of get it you need an identifier to find likeminded people and being gender critical In the trans community is almost like being the only person to challenge racism at a trump rally.

you just have to see the abuse people who identify as 'gender critical' get.

ErrolTheDragon · 05/09/2016 16:39

genderqueer and gendercritical? Grin

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 05/09/2016 16:36

See if you go into Twitter or tumblr and search #genderqueer you'll find a ton of people who identify as that. Ditto vegan. It's the same when searching for content on FB and YouTube.on tumblr especially you can Add in other tags and you could easily find a genderqueer, radical, gender critical, lesbian feminist. That person will share your views. But therein lies a big problem. If you only talk with people who meet those specifics you're in an echo chamber. And it's easy in Twitter and tumblr to block certain tags so if you don't want to see gender critical stuff you can hide it.

Yep! I look for people on LinkedIn too. I don't think the tag thing has taken over there. It exists but it's most for skills!

ErrolTheDragon · 05/09/2016 16:28

Ah, is that how it goes. The only way I find people is via LinkedInGrin

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 05/09/2016 16:23

With trans yes I guess it is mostly insecure young people. But with the rest everyone seems to be at it. Everyone wants a niche of their own.

I have wondered if the need for all these tags and labels is linked to how we find each info and others online and the reason some choose so many. We search via tags.

One upside. It does make is sooo much easier to avoid the slightly bonkers vegan/clean/raw til 4/pets retweeter types, the 'crunchy mummy' types and ukip supporters who just grate on me. Grin

WankingMonkey · 05/09/2016 15:58

Hmmm. By the definition of 'genderqueer' I am exactly that. Does this mean I can escape the 'cis' word? Grin

I was also identified as intersex by the SAGE test. Though I am not. So clearly I am not 'just a woman'...of course not