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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

991 replies

OlennasWimple · 30/08/2016 22:23

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

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19
WankingMonkey · 06/09/2016 22:30

have any real knowledge of biology

Erm...what? Only females have periods. Fact. Wow the ignorance of these people is astounding. Fair enough whine on about transphobia, but don't try and rewrite biology to suit your fairy tale view of everything :S

WinchesterWoman · 06/09/2016 22:30

Hilarious - thinking that a man is not a woman is a 'problematic belief system' according to that article. Incoherent drivel.

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 06/09/2016 22:30

Cher said so

SmashingTurnips · 06/09/2016 22:26

What about it Bambambini?

It's vacuous.

Bambambini · 06/09/2016 22:20

What about this article about terfs m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_57cee4b4e4b084e81ba348c1

Amalfimamma · 06/09/2016 22:13

I've just read some of those tweets. I refuse to answer them because they are so femalphobic (is that a word), ignorant and I'm just going to say it FUCKING STUPID that it's not even worth engaging.

One of them wrote "shows once again how very few people respect Trans folks, have any real knowledge of biology, or understand basic decency."

Stating a scientific fact is not transphobic, nor does it lack knowledge or decency.

Said twitterer has a sociology PHD. Did he fucking buy it?! Because if he believes that men have uteruses and can therefore menstrate he must have ought said PHD because there is no way in hell he was taught at school that men can menstrate.

HouseMouseQueen · 06/09/2016 21:47

I just tweeted some shit on the #ifmenhadperiods HT on Twitter. It's amazing how many people are whining that it's twanzphobic.

Poor little snowflakes.

ONLY WOMEN BLEED. DEAL WITH IT.

HouseMouseQueen · 06/09/2016 21:29

Thanks to those who don't think I'm derailing. I've seen on other threads that ppl don't like it when these threads derail so I made sure to address it.

I accept the Nordic Model too. The only issue is that the cops don't enforce it. It's a complete restructuring that needs money thrown at the police, the legal system etc and we all know Western Male Supremacist societies refuse to throw money around like that to help women.

I've done a ton of research, particularly into Germany since it's close to North America and is a western style male supremacist society.

If you have to have a panic button in a room to make sure you survive the night then that's not a job. If 'hostage negotiation' is something you need to learn in prostitution then that's not a job.

I'm glad to see so many women on here that are educated about what prostitution actually is: male violence against women brought about by the systematic disenfranchisement of women by patriarchy.

Flowers
WankingMonkey · 06/09/2016 18:19

I accidentally set my tens machine to full strength a few days ago. Never ever again. DH tried to say I was faking how bad it was, yet funnily enough declined my offer of putting the pad things on him to prove me wrong..

ErrolTheDragon · 06/09/2016 18:12

Back in the real world rather than through the Looking Glass where humpties can make words mean exactly what they want, 'period' is still a womens issue. See for example the NHS entry, or wiki.

ErrolTheDragon · 06/09/2016 18:01

Twat - ha... After I'd had DD, during which DH helpfully kept turning up the TENs machine, he wanted to see whether it actually did anything before he returned it to Boots. He howled in agony and looked at me with increased respect!Grin

Brandnewiggi · 06/09/2016 17:55

I can't quite believe what I'm reading actually - transmen are being erased by feminists - how about women's experience being erased?

Brandnewiggi · 06/09/2016 17:52

One of the Twitter posters on ifmenhadperiods said it shows how many people don't respect trans people and don't "have any real understanding of biology".
Wtaf???

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 06/09/2016 17:48

Actually if men want periods I have a tens machine kicking about. I'm quite happy to hook it up to mimic the back, pelvis and thigh pain I get.

I'm also quite happy to scratch my fingers down a chalk board whilst flashing a torch in their eyes and wafting some icky smelling concoction under their nose to make them feel sick. That should sort of simulate the migraines I get for 2-3 days.

Couple of Imodium followed by a double dose of sennakot the next day should mimic the PMS bloat followed by the iffy belly.

Super greasy skin. Good old oil spray should sort that side out. Applied immediately upon waking and after every shower.

For the insomnia/crappy sleep being forced to sleep in a room full of cats with a bubble machine should do the trick.

Did I miss anything? Grin

ErrolTheDragon · 06/09/2016 17:14

I'd have been delighted for a man to have my period pains instead of me.

For a reality check on women, men and periods see [http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/period-pain-is-officially-as-bad-as-a-heart-attack-so-why-have-doctors-ignored-it-the-answer-is-a6883831.html here]].

JedRambosteen · 06/09/2016 15:51

Why not? Everything else belongs to them. Hmm Know your place women!

Amalfimamma · 06/09/2016 14:56

Scientific fact is not transphobia. Men do not have periods and women do not have penises

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 06/09/2016 14:56

I saw that. Men have periods apparently. Sigh

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 06/09/2016 14:37

Over on Twitter women are tweeting 'if men had periods'

Even that is being hijacked with people claiming transphobia. Again.

Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread
Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread
Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread
BeyondASpecialSnowflake · 06/09/2016 11:56

I'd hedge a bet that those psyches etc are men, and a female one would have a rather more TERFy reaction...

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 06/09/2016 11:05

Those examples put forward - from prisoner officers and psyches- of men using 'trans' as a reason to get off/lower sentences and actively seek out victims... Yet we are transphobic and TERFsHmm for suggesting what professionals already know?

microferret · 06/09/2016 10:18

this was posted on another thread, think both links are very much worth reading:

womenanalysingpolicyonwomen.wordpress.com/2016/02/01/women-only-spaces-and-proposed-changes-to-the-equality-act-and-gender-recognition-act/

This is the governments response to the enquiry
www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/535764/Government_Response_to_the_Women_and_Equalities_Committee_Report_on_Transgender_Equality.pdf

From the first article you'll see that transgender people were already adequately protected by the Equality Act.

microferret · 06/09/2016 10:06

housemouse please don't apologise, it wasn't you who brought this up, it was Fruit, with all her swerf nonsense. I am in total agreement with you. A couple of years ago I had a very woolly approach to prostitution, I'm afraid to say. I have a friend who is a tantra masseuse and a dominatrix and she is very happy (mainly because she doesn't have to have sex with anybody, is paid well and is in complete control of her client list) - and so I thought well, if it's legal and regulated, it can't be bad.

And then I read about the reality of what legalisation has meant in Germany, where I live, and my mind changed completely. It is utterly horrific. I don't care what apologists have to say about prostitution - oh but there are male prostitutes too, it's a matter of personal choice, regulation is better than underground operation blah blah blah - it's just bullshit. The sex industry is rape of females for profit and no wishy-washy liberal arguments will convince me otherwise. They've legalised it here but they haven't bothered to regulate it properly because women - and especially sex workers - don't matter. And the results are an increase in criminal gang involvement, human trafficking, the horror of flat-rate rape sex and STDs amongst the populace. For me now, nothing is acceptable but the Nordic approach. The liberal German politicians who have allowed the violation of women to become cheap, abundant and acceptable should hang their heads in shame.

Again, sorry to derail but I think this is relevant to the original subject because it is another way in which the left is betraying women under the guise of progress.

BeyondASpecialSnowflake · 06/09/2016 09:25

I know - how about they can have transwomen (preop) > ciswomen (post op)
And we'll just stick with women.