Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

Amal my DH is kind of like yours. He has no time at all for men who try to convince everyone they are women. He thinks they need help - such as a psychiatrist, and is utterly scornful of their sickening attitude towards women's spaces and women themselves.

I don't like men really, just a handful, but I do like that they do seem less tolerant of men proclaiming they are women, than women themselves are. But I understand that is conditioning that somehow, we HAVE to break away from.

It also makes me furious because I truly don't know if men can be trained out of this predatory sexual attitude and behaviour. Is it simply a matter of gender training or is this problem with men something much more inherent? I don't know. It's a question I struggle with constantly

There was a really interesting but terrifying post on Femonade about this exact question some years ago - basically about WHY patriarchal societies are designed the way they are designed. I think about it often.

Prawn

I agree that most men will not tolerate dicks in a girls locker room and you mentioned why. Men know the capacity of other men to violate women and girls. A part of me finds that incredibly sad and pathetic that this is the way men think. You have to wonder how it is a man would recognize that in another man and why his first thought is 'that man is in that locker room to sexually gratify himself by harming females.'

I watch a lot of vids on Youtube where they catch pedophiles. Out of the 400 or so vids of stings I've never seen a female caught. Ever. The reason I bring this up is because of some of the conversations the male hunters have with these predators.

You'll often hear them ask 'what if she was YOUR daughter?'

And you hear them talk about how it's normal for men to think about sexual activity with young girls but they just shouldn't cross the line.

This really shocks me and when reading your comment Prawn, I was reminded of it. It also makes me furious because I truly don't know if men can be trained out of this predatory sexual attitude and behaviour. Is it simply a matter of gender training or is this problem with men something much more inherent? I don't know. It's a question I struggle with constantly.

She is amazing! I don't agree with every point she makes but she is still awesome.

You're right. In a lot of the 'other' spaces so many feminists are banned from talking.

For the record, I adore Germaine Greer. I was so happy that she stood up for women in the face of such male violence.

If you watch her talk here you'll see that the people who attack her are males. Go to 1:17:00 and watch the males in the audience start demanding shit from her. She shuts them down immediately.

In fact, these 'liberal fun fems' are only packing the audience for their little gotcha moment because we all know they have to have their little safe space echo chamber.

Women don't have safe spaces.

I spend far too much time looking at online debates and comments on American sites about MTTs accessing women-only spaces. Because of the Bathroom Bills, it's a red hot topic.

What I see again and again is men, particularly fathers, saying that they don't accept in any way or shape that their family members must be exposed to penis in woman-only spaces. Men know all too well what other men are capable of and they're not falling for all the po-mo smokescreen. All sorts of men: Conservatives, countrymen, liberals - though perhaps not ones who define themselves as uber progressive.

I know a lot of women feel it's patronizing when men want to protect them, but I also know my DH saw it as an important role for a man, something he brought to the table of our relationship. I could bear children, he could lift heavy weights and, if needed, defend me. He was proud to be able to try to protect me and our DCs from ill-intentioned other men. He used to joke that testosterone should be a banned substance.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that outside tumblr and the echo chambers of trans activism most people don't believe any of it. The man in the street is happy to see the trans as a kinda gay, generally benevolent, but as soon as it comes to penis in front of little girls all their tolerance and patience evaporates. What I might call "nice men" have a particular level of intolerance about this issue.

I think what men think about the issue will, as always, matter more than what we do. If so, it's a good thing a lot of men don't go along with trans beliefs. Of course many men watch loads of porn and are likely to have no problem identifying the sexual preoccupation of so many AGP MTTs.

I tell the truth (or as close to it as possible) on yougov surveys
What's the point otherwise? Why intentionally ruin someone's work?!

"I actually do yougov surveys myself to get £50 out of them. Do I answer truthfully. Of course I don't and I suspect most people answer randomly."

Why on Earth not?

Why would you lie on an anonymous survey, especially after you take their money?

There have been a couple of posts mentioning people's DHs, which reminds me of something I often notice about the "transwomen are women. Period." guys. And this is that not only are they men, they're particularly objectionable men.

I've been lucky with the men in my life and, like the 2 previous posters, none of them would have the arrogance or entitlement to announce that they were women. To see "woman" as a costume you can put on requires a total lack of respect for women, more than that: a hatred and contempt for us.

Most pleasant, kind partners and fathers immediately "get" why MTTs don't belong in women-only spaces. Oddly enough, it seems it's on the supposedly "feminist" sites that we hear how we must prioritize MTTs. Men as a bunch don't seem to have bought into the crap, nor do they seem to want to bully women into accepting it. My DS were totally appalled at the cotton ceiling rubbish.

Surveys are only snapshots. It's like tv ads saying you women must hide your grey hairs and slap this on your head and you will be beutiful 98% of women say so!
Then at the bottom of the screen the 98% turns out to be 98% of 400 women who tested slap it on quick, hardly a nationwide representation.
This is why I take no notice of surveys. I actually do yougov surveys myself to get £50 out of them. Do I answer truthfully. Of course I don't and I suspect most people answer randomly. That is why survey results are way off.

I keep thinking about something I read in 'Don't Sweat the Small Stuff' by Richard Carlson that used the analogy of life being experienced from the inside out like driving a car, so that changing your external environment often has a limited impact on happiness & how it is important to make changes to your way of thinking & approaching life. I think one of his other famous mantras is 'wherever you go, there you are.' You get the picture. I'd be really interested to know more about the long term efficacy of transgender hormonal and surgical interventions on wellbeing, particularly given the seemingly high suicide rates post transition. Has there been any serious examination of talking therapies in this context? I can't help wondering if surgical & hormonal interventions really address the person's underlying unease with their body. The survey results for detransitioning transmen posted recently & the low levels of pre-transition counselling in the respondent cohort were really striking.

bambambini he knows that most don't have GRS and therefore the comment, scientifically correct, "women don't have a penis and men don't have periods".

Anyone who claims differently is lacking in basic biology. It's not transphobia, nor is it hate, or denial. It's simple fact

Hope you told him that most don't change their genitals.

Saying that, i hope they are happier after any surgery just wish they didn't feel the need to go to such awful extremes. Less surgery the better.

Dhl got up at 4 when I was feeding and said "wtaf are you reading that has you so absorbed?"

So I showed him, he read a bit, looked at me and said 'so men can have periods and give birth? Like fuck they can and if it up to us to give birth the world would've ended long ago. Transmen are not men, trans women are not women. They have changed their genitals not their dna and anyone who believes a man can bleed and give birth has had a lobotomy "
It's simple biology. Women have uterus especially and therefore bleed, men do not. Men have a Penis, women do not. Women have XX dna, men xy. Whoever cannot understand this needs omega 3 more than hormones.......

It matters because rather like the whole men menstruate shenanigans, the demand that terminology be adapted to spare the feelings of privileged westerners reduces the impact of a campaign which is about raising awareness and bringing about positive changes to the lives of women.

Women are discriminated against, refused education and butchered because they are female bodied and trying to force us to change the terminology just makes it harder to tackle the issues.

And yes, the more outlandish you get the more the majority of the world will just go "oh fuck off". I want transpeople to be able to live their lives free of discrimination bur this sort of nonsense just hurts their cause. Most people are not delusional and know instinctively that a woman and a man are different. Trying to make us deny basic biology is a nonsense.

No, transmen are not men because they are not men.

I think the anecdote is an illustration of why tying yourself in knots over something doesn't always lead you to the truth Japab. HTH.

Also it illustrates something else I believe - the more outlandish the claims become, the more people will reject it. Quietly maybe at first, but with some determination. When one loses the argument TRa could usually toggle back to the sympathy support. People were nice about trans because they felt sorry for them. That advantage is being lost by the TRa community.

I think it's a nice story. My husband isn't that interested - he agrees but I wish it was a bit less 'if you say so dear'

"The people doing the cutting don't give a fuck how they identify though, they're doing it because they see a female. They don't stop and ask if this labia identifies as male and go "oh, ok, this is a male labia I won't cut this one then"

This proves what though? Since when are the people who FGM the arbritrators of what is what? Transmen are not men because those who FGM treat all persons with a vagina the same way?

There always will be people who treat others in accordance with the groupings they place them into, which may or may not align with the person's own self-ID. Those who subscribe to the one drop rule, those who assume any man who is camp or effeminate is gay, or those who just treat all XX-chromosomed individuals the same way, may adversly treat those they place into the groups. Why should such people be the arbritators of what people are.

Just trying to explain some of this to DH, who surprisingly is getting it pretty much instantly. DH is one of those guys who is what i would think of as instinctively feminist - he just doesn't see women as being in any way shape or form less than him or any other guy. But he's not someone who has read up or researched or discussed it IYSWIM?

But anyway, I was explaining "If men had periods" and read him a couple of the tweets, then mentioned that you get the same shit with people objecting to FGM as a term. His response was all sorts of WTF, so I explained it is because it's thought to be excluding people who don't identify as female even if they have female body parts. His response:

"The people doing the cutting don't give a fuck how they identify though, they're doing it because they see a female. They don't stop and ask if this labia identifies as male and go "oh, ok, this is a male labia I won't cut this one then"

FFS

was meant to be added on that. Faily me

Wow, so these magic bleeding men have also accelerated pregnancy to a 1 day process? If I could do that I might not have paused for a very long time at 1!

I love the person who states

"#IfMenHadPeriods is awfully cissexist. I know MANY men who not only have periods but give birth on a daily basis."

Wow, so these magic bleeding men have also accelerated pregnancy to a 1 day process? If I could do that I might not have paused for a very long time at 1!

Ps Portia I am with you.makes your stomach turn.

Bambini you're so wrong! . Wishful thinking

Jer - no, not aimed at you,. But i do want some of what Winchester has been drinking. And outside Mumsnet, I doubt anyone really cares or take much note of what a small niche of Mn thinks. The press and general public don't seem to hold us in that high a regard.

It on an old tablet that won't even allow fuck without a special blessing