Please or to access all these features

Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

991 replies

OlennasWimple · 30/08/2016 22:23

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
WorkingItOutAsIGo · 09/09/2016 21:41

Zeebo I am trying to understand your argument and am happy to debate with you. I am not talking about the autogynephilia point but your key point in the first paragraph.

You refer to the 'disgusting' argument that possessing the Y chromosome means someone isn't a woman. Can you expand? We have all been discussing basic biology XY=male XX=female. Why is that disgusting? What is your definition of woman? Very happy to have a debate that is more than just using negative language.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 09/09/2016 21:40

Sorry to lower the tone, by the way!!!Blush

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 09/09/2016 21:39

No I would hate one. They look ludicrous and they would get in the way. DH does this dance naked when he is drunk about twice each year (our birthdays), where he puts a pillow case behind his penis and starts moving and shaking!!!! It is soooooo funny.:..but he does it because he KNOWS penises really are the most comical thing on earth!!!

NO WAY would I want one of those!!!!

FeedMeAndTellMeImPretty · 09/09/2016 21:29

I'd quite like a penis, they seem like fun. If I could go and get myself one and still keep my boobs, to which I'm quite partial, and wear jeans and flat shoes instead of dresses and heels, I would not be a man.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 09/09/2016 20:28

Autogynaephilia is a sexual fetish. So would autoandrophilia be if it was a thing, but there's little evidence for it. There's nothing wrong with having a sexual fetish as long as it's not inflicted on others without consent.

IME quite a few transwomen are motivated at least in part by autogynaephilia. The transwomen I know are probably not a representative sample (they are mostly late transitioners) so I wouldn't want to put figures on it, but two transwomen on one of the 'bullshit' threads said they thought a majority of transwomen were motivated by this fetish.

Under current UK law rape involves a penis. If a 'woman' with a penis commits rape it's a massive fucking clue that that person is male (sorry MNHQ). Women can commit sexual assault but it really isn't much of a thing. Ditto paedophilia.

Those of us born female and who identify as female don't have to be selfish with womanhood.

You say this like being female is some special lovely treat Hmm

Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread
HairyLittlePoet · 09/09/2016 20:15

Those of us born female and who identify as female don't have to be selfish with womanhood.

Can you tell me please, what, in your opinion are those of us who are born female and who DON'T 'identify' as female. Those of us who reject the whole ideology of gender identity the same way atheists reject religion.

Wanting to group everyone by 'gender' is akin to demanding everyone be assigned or choose a religion, allowing no room for a complete rejection of religious ideology.

We no more identify as a gender than we identify as a religion.

What are we? If "woman" is to be redefined what the hell is the redefinition that includes me and millions of other women who think gender is an ideology that we don't accept?

FirstShinyRobe · 09/09/2016 20:07

I have a woman's soul. Very grateful to have been put in the correct body. Who decided that, I wonder? Or was it just chance?

Or is that a load of guff?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 09/09/2016 20:01

I am selfish with my 5'2 hood. I exclude people who are 6 foot or indeed, even 5'4 from it.
You tie yourself in knots and ignore reality just to be nice if you want to Zeeboo, I won't be joining you.

HairyLittlePoet · 09/09/2016 19:58

zeeboo, women can't rape.

Have you read any of Miranda's posts? I'm just wondering how you square the experience of a transexual who has written about autogynaephilia with your belief that it doesn't exist. Or perhaps you might read the writings of the various women partners who have had to deal with MTT husbands and write poignantly about this sexual aspect of transition.

Blanchard's theory wasn't invented out of thin air, and the evidence for it is very compelling if you choose to listen to those with direct experience of it.

WaitrosePigeon · 09/09/2016 19:54

Trans women are not women. How many times does it have to be said.

venusinscorpio · 09/09/2016 19:49

Do you think it's beyond the realms of possibility that men could ever ever want to dress up and fantasise about themselves as female as a sexual fetish? No one is saying that applies to all trans women. Just some.

venusinscorpio · 09/09/2016 19:46

I don't "identify" as female. I am female. Men are not.

WinchesterWoman · 09/09/2016 19:46

So what's the new definition of womanhood zee boo? One that we can all share?

Atenco · 09/09/2016 19:44

Those of us born female and who identify as female don't have to be selfish with womanhood

I'm not selfish with womanhood, I happily share it with 3.7 billion other people.

zeeboo · 09/09/2016 19:29

This is a quote from the fuckwad who 'invented' the autogynaephilia typology.
If you are hitching your wagons to him, then I'm happy to hitch mine to MNHQs and to transwomen, who are women, born into the wrong body. Those of us born female and who identify as female don't have to be selfish with womanhood. The bile on this thread "the Y chromosome begs to differ, they aren't women" is just disgusting.

"The analogous term autoandrophilia refers to a person assigned female at birth who is sexually aroused by the thought or image of being a man.[34] It was classified as a type of transvestic fetishism in a proposed revision to the DSM-5[35] but not included in the final version. Less work has been done on autoandrophilia,[36] and in an interview with Vicee^, Blanchard stated "I proposed it simply in order not to be accused of sexism, because there are all these women who want to say women can rape too, women can be pedophiles too, women can be exhibitionists too. It’s a perverse expression of feminism, and so, I thought, let me jump the gun on this. I don’t think the phenomenon even exists."[37]"

There we have it. Your buddy Blanchard says it's a sexual fetish and also that women, bless their little aprons can't be pedophiles (sic) or rape.

noeffingidea · 09/09/2016 18:53

bambambini my son is 19 and has no problem with being gendercritical. No problem at all.
He was one of those little boys who loved pink glittery shit and all the rest of it but is now grateful that no one told him he must be a girl or dragged him off to therapy or pumped him full of hormones.
The best thing we can do for our children is to ground them in the real world not some fantasy bubble.

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 09/09/2016 07:15

This is part of the reason I'm so ducking angry about the job security rule being increased to 2 years. It offers whistle blowers or witnesses no protection and no incentive to report nasty things.

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 09/09/2016 07:13

It's more a no choice situation. But ex is still wrong for not doing anything but I know why. If that was me I would probably, begrudgingly sit on my hands until I could find another job. I couldn't risk my finances which is a horrible horrible thing to say but I just couldn't.

Yes, if i hadn't dated ex I'm sure Bob would be a creep to me. I wouldn't put it past him to do anything now tbh.

There are a number of men like that though. I've known too many. The men who wouldn't believe my stepdad beat me.
The man who wouldn't believe my friend, his girlfriend, was raped.
The court who believed I was in a relationship with a man who stole my mobile because I knew who he was. So they let him off. Small town. You knew who the dodgy people were.
The club bouncers who would try it on and if you said no wouldn't let you in the club (this was late 90s btw) the one in particular who would use a fake floppy penis through his flies and would only let you in if you touched it.

This is how perpetrators get away with it for so so long esp esp if they are rich and white or hold a position of some responsibility :(

I'm not man hating. I just see the male world for what it is and how easy it is for men to hold power over all women and men they consider below them.

There's So little action. Mostly because innocent parties, witnesses and whistle blowers will be treated like liars, a grass etc

Atenco · 08/09/2016 22:43

Your ex is obviously wrong, but it is very hard for people in these situations as we see with so many women who stand by their man.

It is horribly telling though that Bob would not do something like that to you, out of respect for your ex, not out of respect for you as a woman.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 08/09/2016 22:13

Oh, I see. How horrible. If your ex feels he's got to keep in with a creep like that, must be vile. Would drive me spare. I think I might have to do the right thing, end the friendship even if there were consequences. Couldn't stand the strain.

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 08/09/2016 19:57

Lets just say Bob holds a position of power. One that could make life incredibly difficult for ex and jo and I have wondered if, in part, that explains his reaction and her reluctance to report it. Self preservation and shock can make people react awfully. Not excusing his response but... It's messy.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 08/09/2016 18:45

God, that's an appalling story, Twatbadging! I can't believe how your ex has reacted. That's bad. How well do you know your ex?

Seems to me a man who'll make excuses for that sort of shit is the sort of man who'd do it himself. You know him, I don't. But it's pretty horrifying. Men can be very forgiving of their mates' behaviour but not many would overlook sexually assault on another mate.

My DH protected complete strangers on occasion and I don't think he was exceptional. A lot of men get very angry about sexual assaults and find men who commit them revolting.

ErrolTheDragon · 08/09/2016 12:39

Depressing to see neurobollocks in the science museum, but good that uk huff evidently isn't on the same page as the us one (there was a link to a horriblly anti-feminist pro TA piece recently, not sure which thread)

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 08/09/2016 12:28

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/11893838 Some, thankfully, logical articles exist but when the science museum Hmm has gender neurobollocks for an exhibit it's going to be an uphill struggle to fix the crap that's happening to language.

prawn my ex recounted a story to me about his best male friend (I'll call him Bob for clarity) and a close female friend (I'll call her jo)

The female friend had told my ex that Bob had sexually assaulted her as she was getting out of a car. Bob had given her a lift home. Bob had tried it on several times. Jo brushed him off and said no several times. As jo got out of the car Bob thrust his hand between her legs.

My ex is still in shock and cannot believe Bob would do this because 'I've know him for years and he's a nice guy' but he also knows jo wouldn't lie about this or anything for that matter.

I've given ex the 'if a woman says she was assaulted then she was' talk but he can't shake the possibility Jo could be lying and he can't stomach the thought of Bob being a sexual deviant and guilty of assault.

He's still friends with Bob and jo and obvs jo refuses to attend events when Bob is present.

His friendship with Bob is more important than the safety of his female friends. I told ex I would never want to be around Bob and he isn't welcome in my home. Ex was taken aback at my stance. Why would I risk inviting a man who has commited such an assault in my home? Ex said 'but he wouldn't do anything to you because of me'

I think this is common amongst men. They are quick to doubt claims of assault by male friends but quick to protect wives/girlfriends/sisters and daughters. But in doing so they fail to protect the women theyll claim to because they fail everyone else :(

There's a reason I'm no longer dating.

Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread
Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 08/09/2016 09:03

HouseMouse, it's very hard to know where it comes from. It's very deep, the level of hatred for women that some men express, and I think a lot of it stems from the family.

My dad is lovely, told me all the time that I could do anything growing up. My brothers are also lovely, long married, feminist-thinking men - same dad, of course and (probably because of how I'd been brought up) I married another one. I now have DS I'm bringing up on feminist values. So a family that brings up men who behave the way you'd want. And I have absolutely no doubt that the same thing happens in reverse to generate loathsome misogyny generation after generation.

Not saying I haven't had personal experience of vile misogynists, because I have. Just had the sense not to marry one. I wonder how much of it is down to how their father treated their mother or perhaps how their mother treated them.

The other angle is our awe-inspiring capacity to bleed without injury and to grow babies in our womb. Some men think it's astonishing, some that it's disgusting. Once again I think we're back to upbringing.

There's definitely a taboo amongst men against judging other men's sexual behaviour. A man may disapprove of another man cheating on his wife but he won't say so. And young men can be cursed with an overwhelming sex drive. Boys are open about masturbation with other boys. They sometimes do it in groups when they're kids. I can't imagine girls doing the same.

When my DSD was in her teens she used to say how comforting it was to introduce a new boyfriend to her dad, making sure they knew she had a great big dad to protect her. She felt the few boyfriends it put off were no loss. My DH was a very gentle bloke but his sheer size could be intimidating. He said he knew all about teenage boys because he'd been one.