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Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

991 replies

OlennasWimple · 30/08/2016 22:23

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

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Jonso · 31/08/2016 00:23

Agree Errol- free speech as long as no one is offended is no free speech at all...

ErrolTheDragon · 31/08/2016 00:18

The bit about 'balance between free speech and a space which welcomes everyone' .... It seems that MNHQ has been veering away from free speech towards the 'safe space' notion. Does anyone else get furious at the primary meaning of that term now apparently being places where ideas cant be challenged, where free speech and free thought are suppressed (in fact very dangerous places especially for young people). Instead of what it used to be and still should be - actual safe spaces for people who need them. Which is precisely one of our main concerns - the erosion of actual safe spaces for women.

NotMe321 · 31/08/2016 00:08

What MNHQ said on the Spartacus thread about the use of the word cis was:

It seems sensible to apply the same rule of thumb to 'cis' - so where it's used pointedly to inflame/provoke etc, we'd delete it.

That seems reasonable to me. I really don't think it's comparable to the N word, and indeed it is quite offensive to black people to suggest otherwise. There simply is not the history of hundreds of years of slavery, torture and exclusion behind the use of that term that there is in relation to the N word. And it recognises that, though some women might find it offensive, it simply cannot be suggested that every woman, or even the majority of women, do. Most women either have little or no idea what it means, or basically think "Meh" in response to it.

You could, of course, go for a quid pro quo: agree that, on MN, "cis" is unacceptable in the same way as it is unacceptable to call trans women "he" or "men" unless they have acted in a way that is exclusively male, most notably by committing rape. But it is illogical to make a massive fuss about your right to call some inoffensive trans woman "he" whilst at the same time making an equally massive fuss about "cis" being used at all. Free speech is a two-way street.

mirandayardley · 31/08/2016 00:07

also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but..."

I'm glad this is (kind of) being acknowledged, because there really are some right inconsistencies and double-standards.

'Don’t call me ‘he’! Transgender Tory councillor calls in police because Labour opponent keeps calling her ‘he’ in meetings '

(Daily Fail link, sorry...)

Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread
Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread
Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread
Thisismyalias · 30/08/2016 23:57

Ugh so mealy mouthed.

OlennasWimple · 30/08/2016 23:48

"There is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the BNP side that can rightly be described as anti-black and regressive but...."

"There is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the MRA side that can right be described as anti-feminist and regressive but..."

"There is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the ISIS side that can right be described as anti-Western and regressive but..."

OP posts:
PlectrumElectrum · 30/08/2016 23:41

I'm posting this link, which I followed from the link wankingmonkey posted up thread. It pretty much nails why this censoring/deleting/removing the so called 'offensive' posts on MN which touch any transgender discussions is just taking us all further down the rabbit hole of absurdity.

How the hell did we get here?

Mandatorymongoose · 30/08/2016 23:36

I would also appreciate a link to Facebook if someone could pm me.

(And off topic a little always nice to see Miranda here)

It just feels like this response is very meaningless. We acknowledge it's anti- feminist women but... but what?

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 30/08/2016 23:32

Agree tan

LumpySpacedPrincess · 30/08/2016 23:30

MN - I know you're trying to navigate your way through choppy waters and of course you need to respect future users / lurkers who have a child who identifies as trans but what about me? I've been a member for over a decade and I really need to talk about this stuff. I have an 11 year old daughter and she has already experienced a bunch of sexist crap, male peers who watch porn, check, catcalling at age eleven, check.

I need this forum and I need to be able to use factual language, not doublespeak.

TanTanNubuck · 30/08/2016 23:28

"but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked?"

So it's not ok for lurkers to feel belittled, but it's fine for women, some of whom who have been active members of this site for years, to feel belittled and ignored. And when they're not being ignored they're being silenced. YCMIU.

HouseMouse, I've just reported a post to HQ and mentioned the Flat Earth Society!

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 30/08/2016 23:25

Right changed my name

Was going to change it to Rufusthe nonCisSpartacusReindeer but that would take ages to change

Plus christmas would be difficult rufusthenonCisSpartacusRedNosedReaindeer

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 30/08/2016 23:21

WankingMonkey I have wondered about the disproportionate numbers of MtF too.

Especially if you look at it from a body dysmrophic view point where men and women are equally affected by it.

I would be interested to see figures from MtF and FtM surgeries and how quickly each group opts for the life changing surgery and drug therapies as opposed to talking therapys, presenting how they wish and live in the body they have rather than change it. I am genuinely curious to see if it would fit with both MH conditions.

I have met many men who have had surgery to become more femanine and not yet met one woman who has had surgery to become more masculine. Also to point out. A number of MtF I have met are very open about their surgery and this may have skewed my 'findings'

HouseMouseQueen · 30/08/2016 23:21

This board is centered around parenting, I get that. Here we are, a bunch of women who are being told that the basics of reproduction ie sexual dimorphism that produces children in the first place, is bollocks. That we must view the Earth as flat.

Does anyone see the hilarity in that?

I am not going to call a man 'she' or 'her.' That's the very thing that erases women. It erases the gender based hierarchy that we females live in, the very thing that oppresses us.

Other than that, I don't know what to make of MNHQ's response. You're either going to let women speak about material reality or you're not.

CancellyMcChequeface · 30/08/2016 23:20

I will continue to call monsters such as Ada Wells a man, and I will not give a hairy crap if any 'parent' of a child struggling with transsexualism (or BDD) is offended by my use of the incorrect pronoun.

This. Isn't it more offensive to these hypothetical parents to suggest that all trans people are like Ada J Wells and the other misogynist and/or criminal men who are discussed on these threads? MNHQ mention courtesy in their response. There's a very big difference between courteously using the preferred pronouns of a trans person you know in real life, and being required to show 'courtesy' towards Ada J Wells, Danielle Muscato et al. As someone said on one of the 'bullshit' threads, that isn't politeness but submission.

I am not cis. I do not have a gender identity, because gender is a construct I reject.
I am not 'non-trans'
I am not a 'non-man'
I am a woman.

WankingMonkey · 30/08/2016 23:20

"...and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but..."

That says it all really

Finally I agree with this. This is basically a way of saying 'who gives a fuck about womens rights' to me tbh. There should never be a but at the end of that sentence to try and justify this. Ever. Especially here.

Bowing out now as I am getting strangely mad which never happens to me on forums and such. This level of anger is not good for me and my poor bashed keyboard.

Jonso · 30/08/2016 23:19

Vashta, yes, short and succint much more important than anything else

venusinscorpio · 30/08/2016 23:17

Vashta, do you actually understand why people don't like to be called "cis"?

Jonso · 30/08/2016 23:15

If I were that parent, pronouns would be the least of my worries. MNHQ, you didn't clear up anything. Only that the posters who have been distressed by this debate are less important than those imaginary parents who may or not be reading the thread. Poorly done.

RufusTheReindeer · 30/08/2016 23:14

show

Could also bring back lots of disabalist language as well

VashtaNerada · 30/08/2016 23:14

I am a cis woman. I won't use it to describe others if you don't like it, but it's how I describe myself. I like that it's a short succinct word that clearly describes myself when I'm discussing trans issues with others. I know I'm repeating myself on all these many, many trans threads but I refuse to lurk and let others think there is only one view on MN so I try to pipe up when I can on behalf of those of us who don't agree. An echo chamber is not good for anyone.

WankingMonkey · 30/08/2016 23:13

Mothers of = Parents of. Also including family members or friends of lesbians. Or anyone who thinks it is fine for lesbianism to exist (which should cover everyone) that should have been Blush

WankingMonkey · 30/08/2016 23:12

Any lesbians or mothers of lesbians who read this and accept that this it a good thing, please read up about the cotton ceiling and how you/your daughter are viewed by a whole bunch (sadly, I do not believe it is a minority...but certainly not ALL) of FtM transsexuals who are suddenly entitled to be known as women, even while retaining a penis that is then used to threaten rape towards you.

Elendon · 30/08/2016 23:10

Can I add my support to those who think the response was somewhat dismal?

Can I also say that it is Ada J Wells, Edinburgh University.

This is Ada Wells, a feminist who fought for suffrage in New Zealand.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Wells

WankingMonkey · 30/08/2016 23:08

The fact is though that most cases of male's transition are motivated by autogynephilia. That this is not acknowledged, even flatly denied, causes many of the problems that we have today between transgender males and women.

And I say these words as someone who is themselves transsexual.

Indeed. I knew nothing about that word, I didn't even know it existed but I have to say, what I have read (including in your posts about it miranda) has been very eye opening and suddenly a lot of things make sense that I couldn't make sense of before. Such as quite why there are such a disproportionate amount of MtF transexuals as there are FtM. Why FTM don't put pressure on gay men to fuck them and demand access to mens spaces...seems to be mainly FtM with the views that sex should be available on tap with noone allowed to say no...oddly enough, the very thought process of a lot of misogynistic men Hmm

Note MN, I have said nothing about 'all' nor implied that. And neither did miranda so no need to delete like the last time this was mentioned.