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Original poster

Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

991 replies

OlennasWimple · 30/08/2016 22:23

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

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19
KimmySchmidtsSmile · 31/08/2016 05:34

SoHairy
I suggest you take your own advice and reread Amalfimamma's post.
I think you'll find she dragged Ego back into it. If it's not all about Ego, and it clearly isn't, leave her out of it. There was only ONE thread with that request so talking about Someone, (ooh who could that be then?), then denouncing them as a special snowflake is still slagging someone off.
And bringing them back into it.
As for the "and to all" caveat, now there's arse-covering right there. The only person on here who has been accused of late of demanding answers/not replying (when she has engaged for many years), derailing and crying victim (charming phrase that one) is Ego. Why? Because she is a trans woman.

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 31/08/2016 05:29

Atenco that still makes it a MH issue. Especially around shame and subsequent anxiety.

As parents we should do what can to eradicate shame for these boys. That includes telling them they are no less male even if they like pink or dresses or make up or knitting or whatever perceived feminine hobby.

But again this is why feminism not the trans agenda is so so much more impprtant and why preserving and improving women's rights needs to continue. Only then will we see more flexibility in the masculine rules that seem so impenetrable to a man who feels trans/ more feminine.

As pointed out women have navigated this for years and have just got on with it. Fighting where necessary. Challenging gende stereotypes. Adopting these things amongst a lot of criticism. wear trousers you won't find a man, go into X job they'll think you're a lesbian etc etc but we've done it. We still do it.

Men could and should do the same.
They are in a position of power so why not make the change?

It's also interesting gay men have somewhat succeeded in this too. yes o am well aware of many homophobic attacks that still happen Some do express femininity in a healthier manner ( as opposed to surgery and long term hormone usage that can leave negative effects and lead to suicide) how did they manage it? What can we learn from it? How can we, as parents and women, apply this to our husbands, uncles, nephews and sons?

There are so many questions but surgery, colonising the safe spaces for women and oppressing women further is just going to turn trans people into a subclass 'male but not' that is already very busibly exacerbating the problem and giving men even more rights over women and their spaces.

Kallyno · 31/08/2016 04:11

"Who is Ada Wells? I can only find a New Zealand women with that name."

Poor Ada Wells.
You need to look for Ada J Wells + Edinburgh university if you want to find out who is being referred to :)

fakenamefornow · 31/08/2016 03:28

Who is Ada Wells? I can only find a New Zealand women with that name.

ZingDramaQueenOfSheeba · 31/08/2016 03:11

Would someone link Spartacus thread pls?

Atenco · 31/08/2016 02:37

I suspect the disproportionate number of MtF transitions will be related to the fact that in our stupid patriarchal society the gender rules for men are still stupidly rigid

StepAwayFromTheThesaurus

I think you are getting somewhere with this. I remember when my dd was young, in Dublin in the 90s, there were so many after-school activities forbidden to boys by their fathers who felt that the activities were too effeminate. Very few boys got to take Irish dancing classes, even though traditionally it has been for men and women. At the time girls were getting into football, rugby and karate and I could see the day that the macho fathers would not allow their boys to do these sports, because of the association with girls.

So sad to think that probably some of those poor wee boys have grown up mutilate themselves in the effort to have the fun that girls have, but it still does not make them women.

As for mumsnet worrying about the sensitivity of the mothers of transitioning children, considering all of the media is falling over itself to say that it is cool to transition, I think it could be life-saving for those mothers to read another point of view.

DioneTheDiabolist · 31/08/2016 01:37

Fuck it and just ban the whole topic MNHQ. All these TAATs and responses to responses. It's twisting my melon man!Shock

Or

Start a Trans Section so I can fucking hide it.Angry

WankingMonkey · 31/08/2016 01:34

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt.

Now I have chilled slightly too, I can respond to this part without breaking my keyboard. 'A way which will cause hurt' appears to be..pointing out biology or refusing to fall into line and agree that trans people should be at the very top of the agenda for everything, including feminism. Well..I kinda think the trans movement (as it stands now) and feminism cannot realistically co-exist. Some people were hurt by users labelling Ada Wells he. So this part of the explanation, is as clear as mud.

HouseMouseQueen · 31/08/2016 01:34

Hi Tantannubuck

Flat Earth Society!

I just can't see why a few men get to dictate to all women, uh, unless I think about male supremacy, and then it all makes sense.

If we're worried about potential or current parents, I think honesty is still the best policy.

Your male child is male. Your female child is female.

I don't see the problem. I truly don't. The only problem I see is a few men getting enraged that nobody is coddling their autogynephilic feelz and then they go running to HQ having a mantrum.

I say, too bad. Reality doesn't change because you want it to. The adults are speaking.

WankingMonkey · 31/08/2016 01:31

I assume the several days were spent trying to find a way to follow the ridiculous trans-agenda while placating us all. That reply probably had several edits to make it seem they agree with the (huge...almost unanimous) majority while obviously disagreeing.

It kinda failed.

TrionicLettuce · 31/08/2016 01:30

".....there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-WOMAN and regressive...."

Fixed that for you HQ........

perfumedlife · 31/08/2016 01:25

If that response took several days to formulate, I'd hate to see a kneejerk response.

Not good enough at all.

SoHairy · 31/08/2016 01:24

KimmySchmidtsSmile Wed 31-Aug-16 01:07:35
" Please link to or quote where Ego has insulted anyone. Actual words.
Am reporting. You think saying someone is acting like a cunt is okay?"

That is not what was said, just to be clear. If that's how you read that post, re-read it. "And to all." The entire post is not aimed at a single person.

IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT EGO!

WankingMonkey · 31/08/2016 01:20

And I'm really not convinced that the interests of those who want to be able to insist that women have penises too align with those of people who feel like their physical bodies are wrong.

Yes, I definitely agree with this. The majority of 'women with penises' are simply...crossdressers who do not wish to have that title. IMO obviously...

StepAwayFromTheThesaurus · 31/08/2016 01:15

I'm not sure it is about transsexualism tbh. I think that's quite separate to men who decide they are a woman because they feel the gender stereotypes we're lumbered with suit them better than the ones that came with their penis.

And I'm really not convinced that the interests of those who want to be able to insist that women have penises too align with those of people who feel like their physical bodies are wrong. But it's the former than seem to control contemporary debate.

KimmySchmidtsSmile · 31/08/2016 01:07

^ Please link to or quote where Ego has insulted anyone. Actual words.
Am reporting. You think saying someone is acting like a cunt is okay?
She did not demand incidentally. She made a reasonable request for the response that MN themselves had said they would be making to go up separately. The OP of the Sparticus thread agreed that that request was reasonable. A response on a separate thread at a reasonable time with MNHQ available to engage would have been preferable.

ErrolTheDragon · 31/08/2016 01:06

Personally I find the use of cis in relation to 'gender' risible rather than offensive. Cis to me is and always shall be this this. Its the emphasis on 'gender' which is more of the problem. I don't want to be anything-gender.

WankingMonkey · 31/08/2016 01:04

How you want to dress though..I don't really see what that has to do with transexualism? I know it must be hard to dress in typical 'womens' clothing styles, but to chop off your bits to be able to do that...seems a bit extreme.

And if its about how people (men especially) view you wearing a dress and such, you are not going to get LESS grief from not only wearing said dress but also demanding to me called Mrs Robinson.

If that makes sense? Autogynephilia makes a lot more sense in understanding it tbh

However I agree about getting rid of the gender stereotype rubbish entirely. But that can only happen if more 'trans' women start just being men in dresses, if thats really what its about for most. Like the guy who is 'pushing the limits of what it is to be a woman' or something by wearing womens clothes but keeping a gigantic beard. Why does this have to be about women, and not men?!

MistressMerryWeather · 31/08/2016 01:04

Demand?

Do you mean when the poster said So please can you post your thoughts on a new thread. It would be open, its own thread and clear to see - rather than hidden in a post on a thread.?

Where are the demands?

By the way, plenty of the women taking part in these discussions - and posting on the rest of the site - are not mothers.

As for racism, eh?

StepAwayFromTheThesaurus · 31/08/2016 01:02

And I say 'we're not allowed' because any attempt at sensible discussion ends up being diverted into some crap about preferred pronouns and misgendering.

StepAwayFromTheThesaurus · 31/08/2016 00:58

TwatBadgering and WankingMonkey (what a combo of names!):

I suspect the disproportionate number of MtF transitions will be related to the fact that in our stupid patriarchal society the gender rules for men are still stupidly rigid. While decades of feminist activism has gotten us to a point where women can make more choices about dressing and hairstyles (although that's still limited by archaic attitudes), ideas of masculinity are still really quite inflexible.

It's much harder for a man to go to work in a floral dress and lipstick than a woman to wear trousers. Boys names are used for girls all the time, but not vice versa. Indeed, names that were traditionally masculine but have been used for girls are now often considered too girly for boys.

So you get more men who decide they must be women because they'd like to express traits that are considered 'feminine' or dress according to feminine gender norms etc.

And we're not allowed to discuss the fact that it might be much better for everyone if we ditched the gender delusion entirely and worked on the basis that your biological sex has no bearing at all on whether you prefer skirts or trousers or like to wear nail varnish. If that were the case no one would need to transition to another gender. And we wouldn't have people deciding that their young sons are transgender because they like pink dresses and dolls and really aren't fussed about football.

Obviously there's still those people who experience body dysmorphia related to their sex. But it seems to me that the transgender debate doesn't serve this group of people very well either. Indeed, these issues end up being sidelined in favour of rubbish like cotton ceilings.

Jonso · 31/08/2016 00:53

hypothetic parents especially

schbittery · 31/08/2016 00:50

I still find the term cis offensive. Why do my feelings matter less than that of parents of transitioning people?

Amalfimamma · 31/08/2016 00:40

Right I'm wading in......

I've read all the posts and comments before reading this tonight and had to post.

I joined MN to chat, debate and exchange ideas with mums as in the name. But in the past few days all I've seen is racism against anyone who was born a woman by genetic males who want to become women.

Are you all fucking mad? I saw on thread tonight by someone demanding that the mods put up a separate thread to answer their demands as they had hidden the thread the demands were about. Special fucking snowflake Much? They then refused to answer the question put to them by declaring the thread a non discussion zone. This is a discussion board is it not. All this while complaining they were not allowed to discuss in another thread and this was sooooo against the idea of a discussion board.

I take it we are all over 18? Good. Then wise the fuck up. Genetics can not be changed therefore neither can seX. Gender is some bulls hire concept thought up so as not to offend the ever growing number of snowflakes. You're born a man? Want to dress, behave and live as a Woman? More power to you but you will never be a woman. You will always be a man. Doesn't matter how much money time and heartache you spend under the knife.

And just because you know you can't genetically become a woman do not try to insult those who were born femalE out of spite, hatred, jealousy.

And to all. You cannot demand answers while refusing to give them. You cannot insult and then cry victim when you are insulted. And you cannot actake like a cunt and then cry into yer cornflakes when people treat you like one.
MNHQ flaky 'cover our arses' response to a serious issue and tbh on a site called MUMSnet I'd expect a bit more support for mums, or potential mums, and therefore genetic women, and not for people who have proved time and time again that they are hear only to insult females in general.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 31/08/2016 00:31

Sorry not

I would never purposely insinuate that Cis was the same as the N word