Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

Look at the third definition of any dictionary!

"A subdivision of one of the main religious divisions of mankind"

Cote you seem to be having difficulties with the English language this morning.

2. Is it a Freudian slip that you called trans a "sect" or just another word you use without understanding its meaning?

Come on, you must understand what sect means in this context. It's common language used to describe different groups of society. Look at the third definition of any dictionary!

I hate Gypsies because they litter everywhere, they need to fuck of!"

This statement is wrong because it conflates the actions of a few to an entire group.
The problem for free speech then comes when someone says 'travellers have parked on our playing field and are wrecking it' and people trot out the 'racist!' Line.

In the first statement, an entire group is slandered based on hearsay/prejudice etc. In the second statement, some individuals are accused based on objective evidence. It is impossible to say "all gypsies are..." But it is possible to say "hey these twenty people are messing up our playing field."

So applying this to transwomen:

"All transwomen can fuck off ... Blah blah.." Is hate speech. It's wrong.
"[specific person or persons] say that lesbians need to be forced to have sex with their female penises" Is an objective,verifiable statement. It cannot and must not be shut down.

Moderators tread a fine line, but there's a huge gulf between blanket statements of hatred and discussion of a specific issue.

Don't fail us mnhq.

"that doesn't make it OK to actively discriminate against them!"

Who is discriminating against trans people on MN? Is there a job opening for which one of us has refused to consider a transwoman, for example?

"If you have any doubt whether what you are saying is discriminative or not, just replace the word trans with another sect."

1. That is not what "discrimination" means.

1. Is it a Freudian slip that you called trans a "sect" or just another word you use without understanding its meaning?

I think you'll find the use of the word "some" ensures it is not discriminative.

I hate the way "some" travellers left a mess that cost £250,000 to clear up on a local school field. That doesn't mean I hate all travellers.

Clutching my pearls? Bore off please. I just think all humans should be treated equally regardless of what they decide to label themselves as! And yes I have heard "gender critical", although most with these views don't shy away from the fact they are RadFems...

Mnhq - look, please please please stay as a place where women can discuss this sort of thing openly.

Let's take the dreaded 'cis'. It has a proper meaning in genetics, a cis element is one that acts on a gene physically close to it.

It is NOT an acceptable term to use to describe women. It's as offensive as the n word. No matter if 'some black people use the word n*gger to describe themselves' - as a white female I would never, ever use the word out loud. Even typing it makes me feel queasy. It's deeply offensive.
When the word cis is used it places the male at the centre, it says 'I'm the benchmark you measure everything against.' I don't know a single woman who would use it to describe herself. It's a very offensive word.

sex is a biological reality - I say that as a scientist. It's detatched from value judgement, it just IS.
Gender on the other hand is a social construct that is hugely damaging to both men and women and contains thousands of years of cultural baggage.
Its gender that we need to be deconstructing, not biological sex. The whole 'I feel like a woman' argument falls down when you prove it, why do you feel like a woman? You think like a woman? How does a woman think? Don't you see that's offensive? And wrong? There is no fucking lady brain!
When you examine that you realise it's all down to dodgy assumptions on how women feel, or think, or dress, or walk, and all those things are what society has concocted over the years. They are not objective realities. They are cultural baggage. Let's get rid of that, so that men aren't mocked for wanting to be nursery nurses, and women aren't considered to be weak little flowers incapable of arc welding, brain surgery or truck driving.
Biological sex is an objective reality.

MNHQ I think you need to reconsider your response:

The word cis doesn't need to be banned but must be seen for what it is - an offensive, male dominant, othering term
The pointing out of objective facts (that biological sex cannot be changed) must not be censored
Hate speech or incitement of hatred against trans people AND women is equally unacceptable.

Mn needs to remain a place where women can openly and honestly discuss issues that affect us without hectoring from transwomen, or the dreaded 'triggering/offense' nonsense. If we are curtailed and censored then users will desert the site in droves and there's your advertising revenue down the swanny.

Who has said "I hate trans people because they all do x so they need to fuck off"? Please indicate where.

I sure as hell hate many actions of some sects of society, however that doesn't make it OK to actively discriminate against them! Imagine if you had said (for example, this is not my personal view but have heard others say it!) "I hate Gypsies because they litter everywhere, they need to fuck of!" That would absolutely not be acceptable because it is a protected characteristic. As is trans. If you have any doubt whether what you are saying is discriminative or not, just replace the word trans with another sect. Then you will see how utterly vile some of these views are...

However the train of thought on trans people is trans exclusionary, and this entire thread has been fixated on MTT, which tells me the whole argument is based on prejudicism against MTT without looking at both MTT and FTT.

Maybe that's because FTT don't disrespect women?

If MTT people try to "other" women they have got a fight on their hands. For centuries men have silenced women and we finally began to fight back in the 20th. We will not be silenced by men again. We will not yield our hard fought for rights. Male privilege will not prevail.

I don't hate transwomen but I sure as hell hate what some of them are doing and saying. They are the ones filled with hatred of women, they are the ones saying penises are female and trying to force themselves on lesbians and demanding access to our safe spaces.

Those transwomen can fuck right off.

And you're being deeply disingenuous that this is the first time you've come across gender critical (not necessarily radical feminist, stop trying to shift the Overton window and marginalise these very common opinions) views on mumsnet before. I seem to remember a recent thread you were also clutching your pearls on.

Let's unpack this a bit. What are you "horrified" about exactly?

I'm absolutely horrified by this thread and the Spartacus one. I never realised trans people had so much hatred towards them. I also didn't realise how many radical feminists are on mumsnet.

I'm very grateful to RadFems for the early work they did in the women's rights movement. However the train of thought on trans people is trans exclusionary, and this entire thread has been fixated on MTT, which tells me the whole argument is based on prejudicism against MTT without looking at both MTT and FTT.

No, I know it happens on other forums. But mumsnet will not be able to shut down discussion of female sexuality, conception, pregnancy and birth and periods and the menopause and survive. They need to bear that in mind when considering their social responsibility.

"free speech as long as no one is offended is no free speech at all..."

^ This.

I really hope it doesn't happen. My discussion on other forums has been shut down Before. When I asked about a similar thing. I haven't been back to them because I was silenced on an issue that affects my body.

There won't be any mumsnet if that happened. Who the fuck would want to use it? That's why MNHQ need to take a sensible approach to this.

Will mumsnet become like this? Where we can't talk about post birth bleeding, leaking nipples, abortion, cervical cancer, ovarian cancer, vulvas, vaginas, PCOS, endometriosis, IBS that is really affected by our oestrogen levels rising and falling, pre menstural migraines all because it might be triggering to a MtF trans person?

Seriously this... It's extreme and it's diminishing my female identity to nothing more than feelings.

Apparently talking about 'womanly problems' and periods is wrong.

I don't want to live in a world where my safe female spaces mean I cannot comfortably talk about my female problems because someone might claim for it to be triggering

i am a cis woman. I won't use it to describe others if you don't like it, but it's how I describe myself. I like that it's a short succinct word that clearly describes myself when I'm discussing trans issues with others.

If brevity is is your thing, then just 'woman' works for me and significantly most other people. 'Trans women' are not women.

I came across this when researching trans issues.

This is still male violence. terfisaslur.com/

I forgot to add.

I am still Spatacus.

I am a cis woman. I won't use it to describe others if you don't like it, but it's how I describe myself. I like that it's a short succinct word that clearly describes myself when I'm discussing trans issues with others.

It's unnecessary, though. You are a woman and transwomen are transwomen. That's the only distinction necessary. They are not and can never be the same.

I appreciate that MNHQ allow discussion on the site about this issue because it gets shut down elsewhere. I think we should aim to stay within the guidelines so the topic is aired and discussed freely and with time maybe discussion will be allowed elsewhere. Let us be the thin end of the wedge in the fight back to reclaim women's rights.

We older women dropped the ball on this one. I'm old and had let my feminism lapse and happily settled into wishy washy liberal middle age, happy to pass on the baton of women's rights to the next generation. I shouldn't have.

I don't want to cause hurt to transwomen but, frankly, some of them don't give a fuck about causing pain to women so why should I be passive about it? I don't know any transwomen personally but I do have lesbian friends who are very disturbed about this issue. I stand with my lesbian sisters who do not want sex with "female penis" wielding men. I stand by their right to say no without being called names.

I stand by women's right to female only spaces.

I won't deliberately misgender transwomen members on MN. I will be polite and use their chosen pronouns. But those in the public eye who use hate speech against women do not deserve that courtesy. I will call a prick a prick.