Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

Really? so we should just shut the fuck up then? I don't bloody think so

I get what you're saying Blistory and TresDesolee, I recognise MNHQ are going out on a limb to allow these discussions at all and I was not entirely unhappy with their response. I'm pleased they seem to recognise that there are circumstances when referring to a trans person's sex is done not by accident, but not maliciously either, and that such posts will be considered individually in the context of the discussion.

I'm bored of discussions about pronouns, I wish they didn't matter. I wish it didn't matter if we just called everyone by their chosen pronouns, never mentioned their actual sex, humoured their beliefs about gender and whether they are men, women, non-binary etc. etc. Most of the time, in most situations it doesn't matter and I will happily use people's chosen pronouns. Why wouldn't I? I'm not an arsehole.

Sometimes it does matter though, generally when the transactivist agenda is negatively impacting women's safety and rights or children's health and wellbeing. Being 'Mumsnet', the vast majority of trans-related discussion is going to be around these topics because most of us are women and most of us have children, so this is going to be an issue from time to time. We're in a massive, tangled, ugly mess and women, children and trans people are being harmed. We need clear language and honesty if we're ever to sort this out.

I don't think the MN discussions have achieved nothing, I think they have been incredibly powerful for raising awareness of what's going on. Of course we need to be having these conversations in real life too, but how many more people will be having those RL conversations because of threads they have read on here? 800+ Spartacuses! A couple of years ago that thread would have had about 5 spartacus posts, 10 'you're a vile bigot' posts, then been deleted. 4 years ago I'd have written one of the 'you're a vile bigot' posts myself.

I also think Blistory is right. It's no easy thing standing up against this - the threat of doxxing is often held up. Well those at MNHQ don't need to be doxxed, do they. And already Justine has had a scary RL experience at her home.If it was me...? My sense of security, safety, my mortgage, my home and family...? I don't think I would stick my neck out quite so far.

It is acceptable to me to call people like Jan Morris, our own Ego, Miranda Yardley 'she'.
And nobody is going to get banned for calling rapists etc 'he'. And we can continue to discuss and talk, let other people hear our views., The compromise is worth it, when you balance it out.

Thanks for the post Blistory. A new perspective to me.

Discussing the "Diversity of genitalia". And who wouldn't want to?

Facebook link, please.

Sweet Jesus

I hadn't read all the article quoted above. It continues,

Yes, the female body and anatomy needs to be de-stigmatised, but even more (article's bold) so does the anatomy of trans people. This could potentially be done with educational events discussing the diversity of genitalia, which would be far more relevant and welcoming

And there you have it

What a pathetic nonresponse from mnhq. It's clear that indulging autogynophiles, mras and the plain delusional is given priority over the rights of women, girls, and especially lesbians.

I wrote this message to MNHQ last week - haven't received any response (I was especially polite because I don't want to be banned/blocked!!!) - and am posting here 'just for the record'! :-
"I appreciate your message on this post but quite honestly it seems to me that when women (and I mean actual female women who can give birth/be mums) are under attack, then language becomes immoderate and uncivil for a reason!
I think that what we are witnessing is more and more women reaching 'peak-trans' and realising the full implications of all this nonsense - which is now filtering into schools and workplaces.
I do feel for you in trying to maintain respectful discourse on this matter - but all this pronouns/new language and meanings is completely nonsensical and needs to be challenged. I hope that you will protect womens' right and ability to discuss these issues on MN by rooting out transactivist interlopers who stir-up feelings and target commenters to get them 'silenced'."

MN's response seems really confused and agree with those saying popping in at 10pm to post a response in the last few posts is amateur at best, deliberate avoidance at worst.

And the idea that we can't state scientific fact in case we offend or put off a hypothetical lurking parent is utterly bizarre. We are allowed to be robust on the anti vax threads, religious threads, homeopathy threads, "I believe in ghosts" threads and other ideas that fly in the face of current scientific knowledge. Nobody has ever said we can't post facts in case it hurts someone's feelings.

To steal someone else's analogy if a poster said " my son thinks he's napoleon" would we be deleted if we said "he's not" in case it hurts someone's feelings? Is now the only acceptable response to say "buy him a horse and put him in charge of Prussian cavalry charges". Why is it this issue we have to bend to delusions on?

I've said it on another thread, but I was suspended and told it wouldn't be lifted unless I promised not to misgender in future. Misgendering was my on,y misdemeanour, so to say that nobody has been banned for misgendering alone is misleading (though might be technically true because I didnt end up being banned. Posie's exchanges from them are very similar to mine and I think she was banned)

This is bullshit, I'm still Spartacus and MN your response is a shambles.

Blistory
I posted a few days ago re the funding of the sudden rise of transgender activism. According to the many parents' testimonies, the trans movement is well funded. Where would this money come from to make the movement suddenly so powerful? Not from fruitloops posting on Twitter, that much I know.

It is in the interests of fundamentalist Christian groups to promote the trans agenda, as it counters the homosexual case. Iran is not the only stakeholder to recognise the benefits of trans. Also, to be go for the complete conspiracy theory, Russia is certainly very anti homosexual. What a great solution to cure the West of the homosexual curse first!

It might well sound nuts, but given the Russian hacking of the Democratic Party and financial association with Trump, well, who knows? The Russians are contributors to many 'charities' in their interests and have been generally backing extreme left and right wingers in Europe, including Marie Le Penn. Muddying the waters, as they say

So yes, I appreciate where you are coming from, although where you are coming from is clearly a position of more knowledge that most of us are privy to.

So spill...

Blistory, I totally see where you're coming from. I agree with a lot of the points you have made. But I think posters have just got to the point where they want to draw a line in the sand, because it's not moving in a positive direction for women and we're not being taken account of by anyone. It seems like we are just going to be steamrollered over.

I very much value this space, and the ability to discuss this in a reasonably civil way. I don't want this discussion to move to walled gardens like Facebook groups or Reddit subs. I don't want it to be an echo chamber. I want to debate these issues with transactivists and vocal trans allies, as well as with gender critical trans people and parents and friends of trans people.

But I very much need to stand up and be counted in some sort of meaningful way. To not do so feels like letting the bullies win, to acknowledge my complete insignificance as a woman, as a class of people who can be pushed aside so easily. It's deeply upsetting, even triggering to me, as a survivor of sexual assault and coercive control domestic violence. I really don't know what to do for the best, but I don't want to give an inch. As I know a mile will be taken.

What are you seriously expecting from mn?

I think we would like MNHQ to stop deleting neutrally written, fact based posts.

I'm posting this incredibly articulate video by a 22 yo female detransitioner who blogs as guideonragingstars, I think on Tumblr. She is living proof that both parents and children need to have information about the full spectrum of potential outcomes at their fingertips. She speaks frankly about the way that nobody really helped her explore any other alternatives other than transition.

Girls and boys like her - and their parents - are the real victims of this censorship of debate and discussion. So I think it is at best misguided and at worst disingenuous for MNHQ to cite these parents as a reason to shut down legitimate debate. It is vital that there are places where people who are contemplating such drastic surgeries and hormonal treatments can go to see all the arguments for and against such action. Regarding pronouns, I think this is something that those who do transition must be prepared for. Yes, many people will use your pronouns out of courtesy and kindness, but it won't make you biologically female / male. It seems to me that of the TW I have encountered, those who are the happiest are those who have fully accepted the reality of their biology.

If trans ideology is robust, consistent and logical, it should stand up to rigorous challenge and debate. That is the point of free speech - good ideas will always stand, regardless of what is thown at them. Winning a debate is about getting other people to agree with you through the use of evidence, reasoning and logic. It isn't about silencing and erasing every statement that challenges your motion.

Agree with Blistory. What are you seriously expecting from mn? Going round and round focussing on the wrong thing.

I also agree with Blistory.

to all who are weary of this fight but who will keep trudging on because women and girls matter.

"Implies". Not it means just that, no implication

Great posts Blistory.

From the link above

" I think it is now well established that the ‘ice your own vagina cupcake’ implies that you need a vagina to be a woman, which excludes trans women. "

YES! Ferfuxsakes Yes! WTAF is wrong with your brain to think otherwise, because it def isn't what is proposed to be 'ladybrain'

Totally agree with 'cis is unnecessary' - it is. Utterly.

I don't get this fixation on pronouns - the very tiny number of people I know in actual RL, away from the weird bubble that MN is these days, that describe themselves as 'transsexual', I very happily address/refer to by whatever pronoun they prefer.
I don't give a flying shit about that - it's the wider implications for women and women's rights that aggressive TA is damaging that I am angry about. AND I would argue it is also damaging to those who are struggling with their sex/sexuality/body or whatever we are now meant to describe transsexual people.

How has this ever become such a wide public debate?? IMO the phrase First World Problem has been invested for this.

There are millions of oppressed/violated/damaged people around the world, many/most of them female/not-Caucasian/not-ablebodied/poor/not educated. Without getting too much into inter-sectionalism, surely there are more pressing and more widespread social problems in the world than the out doubted challenges transsexual people face?!
FFS.

NB: Long day in the office. I am grumpy and cross and not at my most reasonable and I don't feel the need to try and be reasonable.

How about MNHQ invite gender critical dad for a guest blog post??

Let's stop using the term MNHQ and look at what we are really asking the women behind MN to do, to risk.

This community has it's head well and truly above the parapet. There are plenty ready and waiting to take it down and put us all in our place. But when it comes to scrutiny and ridicule, it won't be me or any other poster who takes the fall. It will be a couple of women who will be left exposed to the shitstorm, who will have to shoulder the bile and hatred that will come their way. We're demanding that these same women take a public stance and hold their nerve when no other website will do so and yet we're not prepared to give them our support on an anonymous forum by simply being a bit aware of the harm that our posts can do.

We don't expect MN to come out in favour for or against the anti-vaxxers, or the posters who think controlled crying is harmful, even if there is strong evidence one way or the other.

The difference is that MN does.not delete posters for saying that antivaxxers are selfish, or that controlled crying (or attachment parenting) is harmful.

MN does delete for saying that it is not possible to change sex.

not blind submission to whatever happens to be today's cause celebre.
Exactly.