Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

Blistory IS Justine really. And I understand.

Frustrated.

I'm not concerned about who wins the pronoun battle. The reality is that most of us in a face to face situation defer to the other persons wishes.

What I am concerned about is influencing the next Gender Recognition Act or whatever legislation is coming next. I won't have any influence if I come from a place of hostility that attacks a minority group no matter if I'm righter than right. If I can keep my arguments focused on the harm that it can cause and will cause women, I have a much better chance of being listened to. It's not about being nice, it's about being successful.

I'm very new to Mumsnet (as a poster, rather less new as a lurker) but I'd be completely stunned if as an organisation they felt able to take any kind of battling stance on all this, to be honest, Blistory is right. At the minute it seems to me that a combination of ignorance and "oh it doesn't matter" ism has taken over the general media and political narrative, and they all think they're being frightfully trendy about this. (And let's face it when has actual feminism featured at all in either the media or political world). Mumsnet is showing itself prepared to host these discussions, and to be tweeted as hosting them. Which makes it about the bravest place there is at present.

I don't think you can overstate the sanctity of scientific fact. It is what it is - it's a proven fact. You're not denying scientific facts in your examples, in the first you know you're pregnant, you're not believing that you are not pregnant.

A woman will always be a woman, each strand of her DNA is female. People can present however they wish, but they can not ever be the opposite sex. That is a scientific fact.

And to continue poltergoose's point above, it wouldn't just be you denying that you were pregnant. It would be you insisting that everyone else had to deny it, even if you had a belly like a beach ball.

Notme
But soon it won't be good manners; you will be legally forced to use pronouns not associated with one's birth, whether or not you believe it is untrue to science or you believe it's fine to be 'nice'.

What next will be legislated to be true against all logic or science?

NotMe your being secretly pregnant doesn't have real-world implications for women and girls though, does it? Colouring your hair isn't something that will impact upon anybody's rights or safety, is it?

It's one thing to tell little white lies. It's quite another to ask people to completely deny biological truths about members of whole class of people, especially when that class has historically oppressed the other for millennia, and especially when that oppression is based on biology.

You can do what you like, Notme. As can others. The question is what should happen to the people who can't stomach being gaslighted and asked to pretend they believe something they don't.

I think PP are overstating the sanctity of scientific fact. If I'm pregnant but tell someone I'm not because I don't want them to know, or it might hurt them due to infertility, or I prefer to tell someone else first - I'm denying a scientific fact. The world won't come to an end, I'm not dissing pregnant women, I've just decided that something else has priority over scientific facts. If I dye my hair, I'm lying to the world about the scientific fact of my hair colour. Again, so what? I think I'm entitled to call a trans woman "she" because I choose to prioritise good manners and consideration for another person over scientific fact in that instance.

And also, that rule is going to apply to Stephonknee as much as it does to Miranda or Jan Morris. You can't pick and choose who gets to have woman status. Any man who says they are a woman, even occasionally has to get it.

Also applauds Dworkin.

I've never really thought about it before but, yes, it is cruel to tell people that they can change sex. If a 12yr old boy wants to be a girl then there will never be any periods, they will never give birth etc. And to be really and utterly brutally honest a heterosexual man will never want to have sex with you. We are setting people up for some massive future disappointment by pretending otherwise.

I really struggle with this

I agree that Mumsnet have been very good on these types of thread and generally aren't Deletion happy

I think the vast majority on here wouldnt intend to misgender someone on purpose

But i do not believe that someone with a penis is a woman, i dont. I dont think a man with a beard and penis is "widening the bandwidth of what it is like to be a woman" he isnt.

I have no problem with people believing that they are in the wrong body and have every sympathy with someone who is unable to wear what they want to wear or act how they want to act because of some stupid gender rule

But stating those things is going to get me deleted isnt it?

Or is it not, because i am really confused

The non-trans thing might be good for women, though. You get trans and non-trans, and some non-trans are inevitably the erstwhile men with all their privilege. So the erstwhle women are lumped in with them, and suddenly women are the same as men and we share the same status and privilege and power. Unless the men are prepared to go down a few pegs, which they won't be.

I've asked vocal TAs what it means to feel like a women. I've never had an answer actually defining it, just "you just do" often with insults and cries of bigot, ignorant, stupid, hater and get yourself educated. They can't answer this - then you usually just get blocked after a final insult or two. Questions are never answered. Some remain civil but the two stances are so polarised it's hard to really discuss.

They do have a lot of science reports and studies they think backs them up. Nothing I've read actually says that just because they feel or identify differently to the majority of men, to the accepted stereotypes, that the brain patterns of Trans folk differing from non trans- actually them women or female.

I know Nowt, I am hugely conflicted too.

No one thinks it's seriously mumsnet's fault we are in this mess. They're just hugely frustrated by the general media attitude of either uncritically pandering to the misogynists or burying their heads in the sand hoping people will STFU about it. And yes, mumsnet is better than most but it has its part to play. As a largely female-centric website it needs to recognise that women are also discriminated against. And yes, when you are making money out of women's desire to discuss women's issues, sometimes that should involve accepting the risks that exist today of challenging misogyny.

Brilliant post.

Blistory I agree. Mumsnet has been my haven for the last 4 years. A place where an alternative view could be expressed on trans issues. If all it takes is no deliberate misgendering to keep our voices heard, that's a small price to pay.

When my daughter first came out as transgender there was not much on the internet from a different point of view. There were a few blogs written by people who had detransitioned who had been hounded by the trans community. Parents, like me, who didn't believe their child could suddenly become trans were accused of child abuse. I've had to hold my tongue when speaking to clinicians with my daughter as my views would automatically label me as hostile towards my daughter and she would need protecting from me.

In real life I'm very cautious who I talk to about these issues. There are some brave parents in my position who are out there now, but I could never want to expose my daughter in that way. That makes me cross, cross that we're scared to say our truth. The dissenting voices have been getting louder on Mumsnet and it's been wonderful to see. So many posters have had their eyes opened to the recent trans ideology by others on here and I want more.

I'm conflicted on this. Go Mumsnet for allowing debate even if it's bloody difficult in current climate! Go pp for shouting that we should be able to talk about biological truth and not be censored!

I have a gender-questioning daughter and am terrified by pretty much all websites (apart from 4thwavenow et al but they're not exactly household names are they?) at the moment. I totally disagree with Mn about the importance of keeping this discussion going for the sake of parents of transitioning children etc - they are well-served all over the internet and by every mainstream media outlet going - endless applause for the brave "accepting and loving" parents. It's us unaccepting parents that need this site to stay discussing trans issues instead of it just happening in Fb groups - those of us who are a bit uneasy about the idea that a four year old saying she's a boy needs to be agreed with and really need someone on side. If it hadn't been for people on MN saying things I felt in my private heart out loud I wouldn't be able to have these conversations in real life, I'd be too scared.

And that's why I think we need to follow Mn's rules here. I'll try my best to stick to them. I hope everyone else stays too.

But WHO is pushing this agenda? There are some powerful people pushing it otherwise the politicians would take no notice.

Who are the 'over influential trans activists' and who is giving them the power? It doesn't just happen that people have power by shouting loud. Look at this women re this issue; not doing us much good is it?

I do get the argument re being doxxed etc. But it has to being addressed in some way. What do we do?

Ack. I don't know. It just seems like pronouns are getting the biggest share of the discussion. I get it's a point of principle. But sometimes pragmatism gets more shit done. It would be great to say Right, pronouns aside for now, what are we going to do about This Particular RL Issue.
I do get the language points. But nothing will ever get solved until we get passed pronouns and cis, and we will never 'get passed' them, just come to some uneasy, suspicious truce.

Part of the internalised misogyny that all women need to recognise within themselves and work on, every day, is the message we've grown up with that we need to be nice. Stuff like we're expected to remember to add a 'not all men' if stating the fact that a man kills a woman every 2-3 days here in the UK. And it's this obsession that women must be nice behind this obscene pandering to misogyny, very real, active oppression and the denial of science that are inherent within trans ideology, activism and laws.

Like, HOW can basic science be offensive?!?!?! If someone suffers mental distress when confronted by facts then I feel sorry for their upset but ALL the onus lies with them in finding ways of coping with that. We don't tell women who've had hysterectomies that they will be able to carry a pregnancy, we don't tell terminally ill people that they're going to get better. To do that is not kind, it's not helpful, it's actually CRUEL. And it is also cruel to tell people that they can be another sex. Leaving aside all the other implications of saying someone can change sex, it is cruel, infantilising and unfair to tell people that something which is scientifically impossible can be done for them. That's not easing their distress, or supporting them in doing the long, hard work required to come to terms with whatever long-seated issues have led them to feel the way they feel. It's just palming them off, getting rid of them. It's insulting them. It's the opposite of caring.

MNHQ you have got this stuff ass-backwards. The TRUE, REAL insult and offence lies in demanding that women deny scientific fact, pretend lies and impossible notions are truths just to pander to the delusions and issues of a tiny, tiny minority of people. It lies in demanding that women accept hideously offensive, insulting, untrue lies and stereotypes about what a woman is, who can be a woman and so on. It demands that we demean ourselves to make men feel better.

This is a website predominantly for mothers - women for whom the reality of biology is more real than for any other person. If you want women to deny biological reality and the oppression that exists precisely because women have reproductive capacities, you make a mockery of the very thing you are meant to be.

No other movement demands or requires that science be denied, that another group is sacrificed to win rights for itself. The civil rights movement didn't and doesn't require lies and denial of science to fight racism. Disabled people don't need to endanger, insult and oppress gays and lesbians to fight for their rights. Do you not see, MNHQ, where the 'right side of history' actually lies? Every other group relies on truth to win rights and equality, the trans movement can only exist if everyone pretends to agree with fallacies.

Marking place

Blistory , I agree with your posts.

It's not the women running Mumsnet who have got us into an anti-woman transgenderism crisis and they also can't fix it. It's a society-wide problem in Britain and many other countries. It is politicians who should be held to account for this situation. At several key milestones along the anti-women transactivists' path to power, politicians have squandered opportunities to say "wait a minute, let's really think about the implications" or say "so far and no further". When some over-influential anti-woman transactivists have shouted "jump!", politicians have meekly said ""how high?" while they throw women and girls under the bus. Politicians have decided that the requirement for being a woman must be lowered to "I feel like a woman" or "my body makes me feel unhappy".

Fortunately, more and more women are waking up to the harm caused to women and girls by simplistic and ill-informed legal changes approved by politicians, over the past 15 years or so, about who is a woman and why a woman is a woman.

The politicians made this mess so they should be made to fix it.