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Original poster

Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

991 replies

OlennasWimple · 30/08/2016 22:23

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

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19
FRETGNIKCUF · 31/08/2016 23:31

So next small steps that we can achieve individually is to find out schools policies and public funding. Ensuring any changes to law don't go unnoticed.

ErrolTheDragon · 31/08/2016 23:26

I'm inclined to think it would be better to discuss how to move forward constructively (thanks blistory and irene) rather than indulging in something like conspiracy theory-ish.

Amalfimamma · 31/08/2016 23:20

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat

My guess would be Jennifer Pritzker

venusinscorpio · 31/08/2016 23:17

I think there was a suggestion at one time that because HRT isn't prescribed as much nowadays due to health risks, big pharma companies needed a new client base for artificial hormones.

PacificDogwod · 31/08/2016 23:16

There was a suggestion on here before that it is pharmaceutical companies looking for life long clients who are putting the money up.

I could believe that, but cannot imagine that the numbers stack up: even if every single adolescent who once thought about what it might be like to be the opposite sex could be recruited, the numbers surely of people actually embarking down this route must be too small to make it worthwhile the most cynical pharmaceutical company's time and money?!

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 31/08/2016 23:14

Come on Blistery stop with the drip feeding

7Days · 31/08/2016 23:12

I'm another who'd love to know who is pulling the strings.

There was a suggestion on here before that it is pharmaceutical companies looking for life long clients who are putting the money up. And we know there is no shortage of misogynists and autogynephiliacs who would be easy to convert into enthusiastic footsoldiers, on the backs of your common or garden transsexual or even cross dresser. And politicians and policy makers keen to collect their Progressive sticker without discomfiting anyone who matters.

So, yeah, that makes sense - but I'm only surmising.

PacificDogwod · 31/08/2016 23:07

Well, we all know that double standards/double speak is alive and well, don't we? Hmm

venusinscorpio · 31/08/2016 23:01

It's funny that free speech gets taken seriously as an answer to why men should be able to film up women's skirts and post said photos on the Internet, but not this.

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 31/08/2016 22:58

Blistory
Do you know how much money a certain transwoman billionaire pumps into ensuring that transgender issues stay front and centre ? Do you know how active one of the top earning CEOs in the US is in promoting trans issues ?

  • Are you talking about the Koch brothers? It would certainly be in their interests

Are you in the know or speculating? Come on, spill

FRETGNIKCUF · 31/08/2016 22:57

I've been stuck for years at the penis does not equal woman bit of the discussion and it goes nowhere

And this is why TAs may well win

FRETGNIKCUF · 31/08/2016 22:56

The only thing is the people who are banned. It goes against free speech and points only to kowtowing to the trans agenda.

Now I see the sacrificial lamb argument but still makes me Sad

Blistory · 31/08/2016 22:48

YY, Irene. Much more eloquently put and punctuated.

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 31/08/2016 22:37

Eh?

Blistory · 31/08/2016 22:32

Hey, PD. Rough day ?

The only thing I'm conceding is a bit of courtesy to individuals on an Internet forum. And yes, I do believe that progress is being made but you only see that when you take the discussion offline away from transactivists. I've been stuck for years at the penis does not equal woman bit of the discussion and it goes nowhere.

IrenetheQuaint · 31/08/2016 22:31

"I don't think Blistory is suggesting giving way or meek acceptance. S/he is asking for all out but targeted fight. I think."

Yes; as she says: "What I am concerned about is influencing the next Gender Recognition Act or whatever legislation is coming next. I won't have any influence if I come from a place of hostility that attacks a minority group no matter if I'm righter than right."

My experience of having these conversations in real life is that any hint of anger, negative generalisations about trans people etc automatically makes people shut down and write you off as a bigot.

Whereas saying, "Well, of course fully transitioned transwomen should be sent to women's prisons [which I believe anyway], but there are quite a few cases of transwomen who haven't had hormone treatment or surgery sexually assaulting other women in the prison, so I'm less sure about that"; or

"Well of course adults who know their own mind should be allowed hormone treatment, but I worry about adolescents doing so because the evidence suggests that the majority won't turn out trans in adult life"

really does make people stop and think a bit.

venusinscorpio · 31/08/2016 22:28

I know. But the male/female issue is at the heart of many of the things which we clearly want to fight. It's not just about pronouns. We should be able to call out male entitlement and misogyny in the trans lobby, raise our concerns about autogynephilia and transing young children who might grow up to be gay or lesbian. We should support women who have faced abusive behaviour from their late transitioning husbands. Having to tie ourself in knots to not say trans women are men makes some of these issues impossible to talk about and others very difficult.

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 31/08/2016 22:24

"Over my cold dead body"

Now I hate the NRA (and the dick Charlton Heston, but I can get on board with this sentiment re the silencing of women

Especially as death/rape threats are acceptable these days

DworkinNineToFive · 31/08/2016 22:22

NotMe, you're being disingenuous. I don't know if you're being so deliberately or accidentally. If someone pretends they're a natural blonde when they're really a brunette then that impacts on zero people. It means nothing. Pretending that someone with a penis is a woman has enormous implications. It already means that in America and Canada, schoolgirls have to share changing rooms with boys, because those boys insist that they are girls too and the law has to go along with pretending that their feelings are the same as facts.

The cult of trans - and it works very precisely like a cult - is like every religion: it relies on demanding that scientific fact and logicality is dismissed in favour of all sorts of fanciful ideas, ranging from the well-meaning but a bit daft, to the downright debasement of self required to agree.

Your thinking reflects that of a lot of people, and it's dangerous. Just how can someone find relying on scientific facts negative, something they should calm down over a bit?! What is the alternative - agree with any old shite, just to make people happy? Shall we all pretend that Santa exists?! I just can't get my head around thinking that lies matter more than fact!

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 31/08/2016 22:22

I don't think Blistory is suggesting giving way or meek acceptance. S/he is asking for all out but targeted fight. I think.

venusinscorpio · 31/08/2016 22:19

I hope you're right, microferret.

PacificDogwod · 31/08/2016 22:18

I too am not expecting MNHQ or any individual to publicly take sides.
But I DO expect them as a matter of policy to let statements of well recognised FACT stand.

And yes, who is pushing the TA agenda? To what end??
It is all very confusing.

Blistory, really nice to see you Smile

venusinscorpio · 31/08/2016 22:17

Blistory again I think your points are eminently reasonable, but I'm not convinced we are actually getting anywhere in real world terms by giving way on this. It's just too easy to ignore us when we meekly accept it. I'm not sure where you think this success is going to come from exactly.

vesuvia · 31/08/2016 22:12

NotMe321 wrote - "If I'm pregnant but tell someone I'm not because I don't want them to know, or it might hurt them due to infertility, or I prefer to tell someone else first - I'm denying a scientific fact."

I think a closer comparison to the scale of denial of biology that goes with transgenderism would be if a pregant woman said to an infertile woman something like: "I'm not pregnant, because, like you, I can't get pregnant because I'm also infertile" or "Of course I'm not pregnant, only men can get pregnant".

microferret · 31/08/2016 22:10

Sigh. Yes, re blistory et al, a lot of people are making a lot of good points. MN are doing their best I suppose. It's too soon for a battling stance, as Dog points out. This is the only mainstream site where these conversations are even allowed, bar subreddits. We will probably have to wait for the tide to turn before we can reasonably expect them to stick their necks out more than they already have. It's disappointing but I suppose predictable. I shall try to see it as losing a battle on the way to winning a war.