Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

This comment is slightly off where the thread has been going, but I've been busy for a couple of days getting DC back to school.

I was hugely disappointed by how MNHQ responded to this issue - and at this point I am not talking about the content. Given the journalistic background of at least some of you, and your social media savviness, to decide to release a wishy-washy statement ignoring most of the discussion, late at night, on an about-to-be-closed thread was shockingly disrespectful to your customers who have spent significant amounts of time having a generally very thoughtful and respectful debate and I think made huge strides in developing understanding. And the sheer unprofessionalism of Kate's comment that she couldn't stay for any further discussion as she had kid stuff to do was appalling to me. As a working mother, actually in working hours, being paid to work, I would never say I cant continue to do my job as I had kids stuff to do. So either poor Kate was writing the response in her holiday time - which begs the question of why there wasn't anyone actually at work to do it - or else she wasn't taking it seriously.

And now, several days later, we still haven't seen anything more from MNHQ - either a more detailed response or any response to the criticisms about how this was done.

The point is - I am not making money from running this site - so its fine for me to take a couple of days off from the debate to deal with kids' stuff. The same does not apply to MNHQ.

microferret that is such a shame its illegal. By discussing and questioning these other possibilities before a gender dysporia diagnosis is made we could successfully reduce the suicide/self harm/depression rates and help better treat the actual issue.

I don't think exploring all medical/mental health possibilities is 'conversion therapy' its certainly not helpful at all for TRAs insist that's the case.

I also don't think its dangerous to insist upon talking therapies to explore an individual persons gender crisis before placing the label of 'trans' on them either via Drs or themselves. I don't think (in the UK at least) the waiting period for hormone medications is long enough to fully explore other avenues. It certainly shouldn't be given to children with fragile MH. TRAs will disagree.

By exploring an individual's gender crisis you can get to the root of the issue - they could be gay, they may be or have been suffering abuse at home - I read a large number of trans individuals had suffered abuse as a child so I can understand switching genders to escape the links to the abuse and this should also be explored because this to me screams more fight/flight response and isn't healing the issue of abuse that has lead to the gender crisis.

Clearly when TRA's claim we gender critical folk are the reasons trans people commit suicide/self harm or suffer depression they have never bothered to look beyond their own agenda's. I sort of get it. If a number of transpeople do realise their trans label is the wrong one and are dealing with any of those issues you mentioned then it could lead people to think trans isn't really a big issue and not take it seriously enough for those who really have gender dysphoria and if a number of transwomen did really have Transvestic fetishism or autogynaephilia it will be seen as a weird, inappropriate sexual fetish isolating those with actual dysphoria from society. But that alone really gives a strong case for exploring the crisis to begin with before instant labelling and life changing surgeries and hormone therapies and will halt the situation we are in right now where women's rights are being eroded because a few very vocal transwomen (yet to see transmen demand this If I am honest) want access they really shouldn't have.

*Aleana
*
I know transwomen who admit to being autogynophiles, are you asserting they don't know themselves?

Reading blogs on transwomen talking about vaginas, using really male voices to describe them in graphic detail and how much they want one, or how their created one is fresh and clean unlike the foul stench of a "cis" one tells me that autogynophilia is a real thing.

I'm honestly not sure what sort of feminist I am, I don't really know all the theory and what the labels mean .... Pretty sure more liberal than radical though. And def 'gender critical' though I only heard the term recently. Are there many feminists who aren't 'gender critical'? I'm struggling to imagine what that stance could be. ^^

*Fruit
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I do remember A whole host of women fawning over pictures of the transwoman.... Unlike anything they'd do for actual women.

Are you really doubting my account?

*fruit cider

weirdly I don't remember anyone called fruit cider
*
I know the feminist group that branched off though, a close friend of yours??? Doubt it

I'm a gender-critical liberal feminist too. Generally I have a live and let live approach and I am not remotely bothered by the existence of a few fully transitioned/transitioning transsexuals. And I really dislike the hatespeak against trans people I've encountered occasionally on the internet.

But I think the whole phenomenon has gone bonkers over the last few years and I am very seriously opposed to people being allowed to define their legal sex purely on the basis of self-identification, which seems to me a significant risk at the moment.

Fruit, I am a liberal feminist. Always have been. I am gender critical. Always have been - even though I only heard the term recently in this context of the trans agenda.

FruitCider it's getting increasingly hard to take you seriously - you seem to only speak in hyperbole, you think that being a woman is apparently only skin-deep, and you think that calling people TERFs is totally acceptable. Of course it isn't only radfems who are gender critical. There are lots of liberal feminists who feel this way. There are lots of people who feel this way, full stop. The women on here are expressing their opinions in a courteous, nuanced manner. You don't have to agree with us but at least get your facts straight and stop with the wild exaggerations. It does your cause no favours.

fruit, what do you think "gender critical" means, out of interest? Because I suspect you may be interpreting it to mean something different from the rest of us? As I pointed out upthread there are gender critical lib fems, gender critical women who don't like to call themselves feminists (and I should have added but was rushing things on my phone - gender critical transwomen).

Btw you really can rule out the "big pharma seeking out new markets now women are scared of hrt" conspiracy theory - my hrt, for instance, actually costs less than the prescription charges I pay for it (googled for entirely unrelated reasons a couple of years ago).

twatbadging I expect that happens regularly. I also suspect that because now it is only politically correct to discuss dodgy "physiological" causes of dysphoria, rather than latent homosexuality, social / familial factors and of course paraphilias, many dysphoric people are not getting the care that they need, and are instead being told that transition will solve everything and is risk-free. TRAs call any attempt to help dysphoric people desist "conversion therapy" and I think I'm right in saying that in the US it is illegal to suggest any such therapy to youths with dysphoria.

micro Interesting piece.

The fetishes as written in the DSM include things such as Transvestic fetishism - hetero men (this now includes women but its not as common) who gain sexual arousal from wearing women's clothes. commonly very feminine items such as underwear, stockings, heels and silky nightwear. It is only diagnosed if a man is distressed by these feelings and seeks help. A few of the articles I have read suggest a man who has the above may later be diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Some have.

So the question I'm curious about is due to the much higher proportion of transwomen to transmen is it possible that some are possibly dealing with sexual fetishes and disorders under the paraphilia category and by assuming they are transgender first their needs are not being met with regards to appropriate treatment and this in itself could be part of the reason some commit suicide or continue to a lead a very unhappy life even after they change gender?

I know its a controversial suggestion but I am genuinely curious is there could be a possibility of misdiagnosis. It happens all the time with complex MH conditions.

Holding my hand up here as a liberal feminist who is gender critical and who apparently doesn't exist.

Autogynephilia is a very real thing, aleana. Read this thoughtful essay by trans woman Ann Lawrence for more insight on the topic annelawrence.com/becoming_what_we_love.pdf

"Autogynephilia" is a sex-fueled mental illness made up by Ray Blanchard. Blanchard defines it as "a man's paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman."

"Autogynephilia" is quackery, if you chose to believe in pseudoscientific theory can we go back to bloodletting? Cause that worked wonders!

"Gender critical feminism is exclusively a RadFem stance"

Wrong.

I am not Rad Fem (most obviously, due to my view on porn) but am most definitely on the side of biology and objective reality. And therefore against the gaslighting Newspeak of transactivists.

My peak trans moment came from that God awful ALW ( amazing leftie women) a Facebook group of. 20000 who joined post the tories getting elected. I was completely unaware that just anyone could say they're a woman and most others would go along with it, that the thing (vagina, breasts actually being female) meant nothing to transactivists and that they really hate us for it ( even though it doesn't exist.). I was shocked to learn that women, special kool Aid drinking head so far leaning in understanding they could barely stand competitively accepting women, were happy to put the needs of transwomen before women, that it was bigoted to say you didn't want to piss or change next to s transwoman, that your your young daughter would fear a transwoman in their space.... A very verbally aggressive transwoman came into the space, ALW, and told hilarious jokes about tying up women (ha ha girls) to radiators and letting them die in a basement, when challenged she had to tell me that she was more woman than me, more nurturing, more feminine...An admin messaged me to tell me the transwomans "male voice" that she could hear in her posts were triggering as she had been a victim of sustained violence herself. However the same admin, in public, also toed the line of transwomen are women....

Your account is very peculiar, as I don't remember that at all and I'm in all the ALW groups. What I do remember is a close friend of mine setting up a feminist group, which is extremely transphobic, and was disfranchised from the main ALW heading due to its content eg calling transwomen vile rapists. Another intersectional feminist group was set up and most people migrated over to that, because guess what? The majority of liberal feminists are not gender critical and do not support the work of Bindel etc. Gender critical feminism is exclusively a RadFem stance, hence the word TERF thrown about. I personally do not vieW TERF as a slur, I think it's pretty accurate. Trans Exclusive RadFem. RadFems exclude trans people from their discussion. It isn't intersectional, therefore it is exclusionary.

I'm still out, did we establish where we can migrate to yet?

(Someone said there was a FB group, but I'm not on there)

I wondered how long it would take before "TERF" was mentioned.

Wonder if Matt Bomer and Mark Ruffalo are heading towards Peak Trans, they're copping it big from the trans community and their supporters.

I wasn't intending to imply that there was some trans mafia behind all this.

Google the Trans Global Initiative if you're that interested. It show the huge push going on to centre trans issues in the global arena. Look at the funding increases in the last five years. Those funds aren't going on building refuges or domestic violence campaigns but are being spent on putting transwomen into influential positions. Heading up human rights committees, LGBT groups, political lobbying etc. That filters down through social media which is an explosive mix when used by the marginalised and disenfranchised or the just plain trendy, liberal progressive youth.

This isn't conspiracy theory stuff - just the good old patriarchy doing what it does best - protecting the interests of rich, white men mainly. Many of the people funding these initiatives appear to be following a Caitlyn Jenner like path of successful career as a man, marriage, children, late transitioning, history of cross dressing. Not really the same trajectory as a young, suicidal boy or a poor, black transwoman. If I can advocate for the rights of women without stepping on the latter two I'd prefer to do so. The first type of transwomen mentioned above, the rich, white, homophobic men ? Couldn't care less about them

Seriously, arguments on pronouns really are insignificant in the bigger scheme of things. Preventing this lobbying from having a political impact over here is the only thing that is going to work.

*PritzKer

I have just googled Jennfer Pritzer.

Lightbulb moment.

(And I agree with Blistory).

Agendas like this are not pushed so quickly without a lot of support.

and btw I was quoting Blistory above. Go look

I don't want MNHQ to come down on one side or the other. And I certainly don't want to be angry with any class of people, or make negative generalisations about anyone. I do want to know that reasoned posts based on proven scientific facts, or discussing evidence, won't be deleted because those facts or research may upset someone. A forum like this is political and public - and truth matters.

Where else can we take the fight to? Is there a manifesto somewhere?