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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

991 replies

OlennasWimple · 30/08/2016 22:23

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

OP posts:
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OlennasWimple · 01/09/2016 16:16

Blimey - my DS tried to put my bra on once - that proves that he needs to transition!

DD dressed up a pirate chief at the weekend - that proves she needs to transition!

Still, at least I'll still have "one of each", eh Hmm

OP posts:
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 01/09/2016 16:14

"At 13 she was adamant that chest surgery and hormones were right for her. She knew she was right (a common misconception that all teenagers have)."

Holy fcking Christ, NonHypotheticalLurkingParent, that's terrifying. What you must have gone through! Thank goodness you got her out of it in time. MNHQ, these are the parents you need to be thinking about. The current fashionable consensus is doing harm, sometimes permanent harm, to thousands of children and young adults.

There are big chunks of homophobia in this mix. Most children who express gender issues in childhood will develop into homosexual, not transsexual, adults. Here is a link which documents the research.

That young people who question their gender very often turn out to be gay or lesbian accounts for the popularity of the "my child is transgender" in the American Bible Belt where it's a lot more acceptable to have a trans child than a homosexual one. Parents of trans kids are "brave" and "inspirational", whereas parents of a lesbian are seen as failures with their child a dirty secret.

I do hope that MN isn't receiving funds from organizations which support gender transition for children. That would compromise the site's independence, and also completely go against its consistent support for reason and science in all parenting matters. The anti-vaxx business comes to mind. Would MN have taken money from them?

However I suspect it's more likely the site is being so dithery because HQ is under fire from TAs and their supporters. TAs are immensely dedicated to shutting down debate and will do anything, including issuing death and rape threats, to get their way. Sites can be taken down by hacking or other attacks. This sort of thing would really damage MN and I can see they might be intimidated.

But I'd remind them that so very many of us here love and support this site. We have fun on it, we chat, but more importantly we trust it, many of us have trusted it in very dark times. Some of us lurk - quite a few de-lurked on the Spartacus thread. We want it to continue being a beacon of light. Please, MNHQ, hold firm. Do not let us down by allowing the TAs to silence us. This issue matters so much to parents and children, and it is the biggest threat to women's rights in a 100 years.

WankingMonkey · 01/09/2016 16:10

My brother used to dress in my grandmas clothes, as did me and my sister. I 'roleplayed' as Peter Pan on a few occasions that I can remember (innocently..as a child before anything starts Grin )

Odd that these days I would have been eyed up as a potential transman because of this. Or so it seems

PacificDogwod · 01/09/2016 16:08

prawn awesome - thank you!

Thing is, people think medicine is all science, but there are fashions in medicine just like in anything else
That, with bells on.
Medicine is an art which also uses science. The science is constantly changing as we learn more things, and the 'first do no harm' assertion seems to overlooked when agreeing to medically transitioning v young people/prepubescent children.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/09/2016 15:56

Awesome post prawn

BeyondASpecialSnowflake · 01/09/2016 15:45

Same here. DS and a male friend used to physically fight over the sparkly princess dresses

Lalsy · 01/09/2016 15:37

I don't believe SG. The HT in the article says it happens all the time and teaching friends and my own dc and their friends confirm this.

BeyondASpecialSnowflake · 01/09/2016 15:36

Ah, I hadn't thought about mn having links with mermaids before. That is certainly a possibility, isn't it...

ErrolTheDragon · 01/09/2016 15:32

Bizzare ... when my DD was little she very often took the male role in pretend games - Mr McGregor, the Tailor of Gloucester, Daddy Bear... She went through a phase of calling herself Peter. She never showed the remotest sign of rejecting being a girl. When her yr1 teacher dismissed her 'what do you want to be when you grow up' with 'Girls cant be builders' her response was outrage at the stupidity of the teacher - of course girls can be builders. (she's going to be an engineer, not a brickie Grin)

This is of course entirely commonplace. If nursery staff hadn't seen little boys adopting female roles, either they weren't very good observers or (sadly) its less common than little girls playing boy parts because the inferiority of women in society and stereotypically female activities is inculcated at such a young age.

Lalsy · 01/09/2016 15:17

Article with extensive quotes from Susie Green here: "“She’d go into my wardrobe, put on dresses and she even put my bra on at 18 months." She gave evidence to Maria Miller's committee and claims in that (rather muddled) article that the nursery staff had never encountered a boy who played with girls and "took the female role in games" before...extraordinary.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 01/09/2016 15:13

Yes, WankingMonkey (love that name, reminds me of a formative childhood experience - God, my poor mother was embarrassed) - I wouldn't have described myself as a RadFem either, at least not until this issue kicked off. Now, if thinking that gender is made up bollocks and that biology matters makes me a RadFem then I guess I must be.

As for TERF... It's only ever used as an insult/silencing tactic. My understanding is that TW are excluded from radical feminism because they aren't women, whereas TM are included because they are. TM seem often to be fuelled by self-hatred, some being young lesbians - and I feel great concern for them.

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent · 01/09/2016 15:07

Excellent post Prawn.

In my dealings with clinicians they are either scared to speak out and so talk in a kind of code (a bit like politicians!) or they positively advocate transition.

I said up-thread that in certain meetings I've been afraid to voice my views and concerns in case I'm seen as a threat to my daughter's well being.

Another excellent site is Transgender trend. It's packed full of articles deconstructing trans issues.

Regarding Mumsnet sponsors it would not surprise me if the charity Mermaids was one. There's an interesting article on Transgender Trend on their CEO who advocates the use of puberty blockers on children questioning their gender. Mermaids also want the age that hormones can be prescribed to children to be lowered in certain cases:

“Basing it on an age is completely inappropriate,” said Susie Green, head of Mermaids, a charity that works with trans children and their families. “We believe it should be in line with the young person’s maturity and their ability to understand what’s involved and the implications of what treating and not treating are.”

My daughter is quite mature in her thinking (sometimes). At 13 she was adamant that chest surgery and hormones were right for her. She knew she was right (a common misconception that all teenagers have). Now, however, she can see how she was brainwashed into thinking that just because she preferred to play with the boys in primary school and liked Power Rangers, that it didn't make her a male. The genderfication of practically everything these days has a LOT to answer for.

WankingMonkey · 01/09/2016 14:09

I am about as far from a RadFem as you can get tbh, and I am gender critical. It is ridiculous to keep putting everyone who agrees with biology and disagrees with pink/blue brain rubbish into the same box to try and insult them with TERF and such.

For clarity, I do not think the feminists would have me..especially given my views on the likes of porn and prostitution and such. But I will never agree that there is such thing as a female penis...

fascicle · 01/09/2016 14:07

I think MN's position on this is reasonable (and frankly restrained). I would also say that lots of questionable posts are allowed to stand.

If my business was website based, and users tried to force change by making demands on the website and declaring my actions/policy on something to be 'fucking bullshit', I wouldn't be so tolerant.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 01/09/2016 14:07

'Well, I'd argue that by creating a safe space for parents to critically analyse what the trans agenda is doing to their kids, that MNHQ is going to be on precisely the right side of history. '

This.

Lalsy · 01/09/2016 14:04

Fantastic post, Prawn. I really hope MNHQ take a look at that site.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 01/09/2016 13:58

MNHQ writes: "what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage."

Thing is, the internet is alive with support for parents who endorse their child's transition. There are reality TV shows - "I am Jazz" for one - offering wholly uncritical support for transition at younger and younger ages. There are huge resources if you go along with the transition narrative.

It's the parents who are worried about the rights and wrongs of this whole thing that are short on support. There are a few blogs, by de-transitioners and by parents. And of, course, there's youthtranscriticalprofessionals.org/ First, Do No Harm: Youth Trans Critical Professionals Thinking Critically about the Youth Transgender Narrative.

I hope MNHQ looks at this site, sets someone to read its contents (there's not too much to read yet). It's very important that MNHQ realise that the people posting on this blog, these health professionals, are having to blog anonymously because these days failure to go along enthusiastically with the trans agenda wrecks careers. You can lose your job over expressions of even the slightest doubt, even though the current orthodoxy means teenagers are being given off-label drugs and sterilized.

This is how they describe their mission:

We are psychologists, social workers, doctors, medical ethicists, and academics... We are left-leaning, open-minded, and pro-gay rights. However, we are concerned about the current trend to quickly diagnose and affirm young people as transgender, often setting them down a path toward medical transition.

Our concern is with medical transition for children and youth. We feel that unnecessary surgeries and/or hormonal treatments which have not been proven safe in the long-term represent significant risks for young people. Policies that encourage — either directly or indirectly — such medical treatment for young people who may not be able to evaluate the risks and benefits are highly suspect, in our opinion.

Medical transition can involve administering puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones to young children. These drugs are being used off-label. The long term side effects are not known, but there is cause for concern. They can certainly result in permanent sterilization of a child who has not even been allowed to go through puberty. In essence, the rush to treat transgender children medically is a massive experiment. For the young person who has never lived as their own sex in their own body, surgical intervention may seem like the next logical step. Young people can undergo such treatment without parental permission once they are eighteen years old. In these surgeries, healthy organs are removed.

We are alarmed by the trend among mental health professionals to affirm a young person’s self diagnosis as transgender with minimal exploration. In many cases, these young people come to identify as trans after binges on social media sites such as tumblr, reddit, or YouTube. There is evidence that social contagion may be at play. In many schools and communities, there are entire peer groups “coming out” as trans at the same time.

For such a self-diagnosed young person, the next stop is often a therapist’s office. In several states, there is now legislation on the books forbidding therapists to engage in conversion therapy. While the sentiment behind this legislation is laudable, in some cases, it is being interpreted to mean that therapists cannot explore gender identity with a youth who is professing to be trans. This would mean we can’t ask why; we can’t explore underlying mental health issues; we can’t consider the symbolic nature of the gender dysphoria; and we can’t look at possible confounding issues such as social media use or social contagion.

It is time that mental health and other professionals begin speaking out on this issue.

Thing is, people think medicine is all science, but there are fashions in medicine just like in anything else - and they can do a lot of damage. Initiating medical treatment with a side effect of sterilizing children is a huge deal, and normally only considered if potentially life-limiting illness is involved.

I remember the Satanic abuse scandal, a moral panic that originated in the US in the 1990s but spread to the UK - see the Orkney child abuse scandal. Innocent families were torn apart and hundreds of children removed from their parents due to a sudden explosion of uncritical belief, particularly among social workers, that there was a hidden but significant population of children being raped, even murdered, by Satanist groups. This belief took hold very thoroughly, and went on doing its damage almost uncontested for years until it fizzled out. No single provable case of the Satanic abuse they sought was ever found. But at the time pretty much everyone believed in it, or seemed to.

There have been other fashions in medicine/social work concerning children and young adults. Anyone else remember the epidemic of False Memory syndrome, developed and encouraged by unscrupulous therapists? That too was debunked, but only after it had done its damage to the innocent. And of course there was the horrifying anal dilation business in Cleveland which caused irreparable damage to the children and families involved.

Trans activists try to shut down debate with everything in their power, and one of the arguments they use is that "you don't want to be on the wrong side of history."

Well, I'd argue that by creating a safe space for parents to critically analyse what the trans agenda is doing to their kids, that MNHQ is going to be on precisely the right side of history. The whole toxic mess will explode in the not-too-distant future, with young adults de-transitioning, scandals and law suits. Whatever the motives, transing children can only be considered wildly irresponsible, and this will eventually come out.

In the meantime, many parents are desperate for support and MN is ideally placed to provide it. I'm sure no one would insult or try to hurt questioning parents, but outspoken help is precisely what so many need. Check out the replies on 4th Wave Now, a community of parents & friends skeptical of the "transgender child/teen" trend. Pretty much every post that appears is answered by several parents who have just found the blog, expressing their huge relief and gratitude that there's a place where the trans agenda is being held up to scrutiny.

OlennasWimple · 01/09/2016 13:48

I've reported Working's post to bring it to MNHQ's attention, asking whether there will be any further engagement (KateMN's post implied that there would be, after the kids were put to bed Hmm). Suggest others do likewise to prompt them to get on with it?

OP posts:
FeedMeAndTellMeImPretty · 01/09/2016 13:17

Fruit Cider - I personally have no hatred towards anyone, not even those laughable misogynistic TRA twats who are spouting this nonsense. Hate is too strong a word for how I feel about their ridiculous assertions. I actually think they are twisted and a bit bonkers if they actually believed what they are crowing about.

Not wanting to call myself 'cis' and stating the biological fact that transwomen and women are NOT the same thing isn't hatred, it's just plain common sense.

They remind me of the famous Mythbusters quote "I reject your reality and substitute my own".

I certainly don't think that stating there is no such thing as a female penis = hatred. To say otherwise is ridiculous, not 'inclusive'.

PlectrumElectrum · 01/09/2016 12:37

Any chance of an expansion on this -

'I have been told that they [MN] have staff members and/or sponsors affiliated with the TA movement so that is no doubt why.'

If there is any truth to this I'd like to know. It would explain a lot, but Id be surprised/concerned if there are staff affiliated with the TA movement at MN influencing their policy discussions/stance on the trans debate. That's an entirely different picture from that painted earlier - re those in charge being concerned about TRA backlash so fudging their response to hide behind faux concern for hypothetical lurking concerned trans parents, to avoid becoming targets. I'd be pretty surprised if it's true, but any things possible I suppose.

Tbh, all this speculation about who/how/why on MN stance here would be avoided if they'd just engage with us on the issue. The silence from MNHQ while this rages on is unhelpful at best. I think they are genuinely hoping we'll all just fizzle out eventually without having to actually address this in any significant way whatsoever.

BeyondASpecialSnowflake · 01/09/2016 12:34

Agree with Working's post. We were told a response would take weeks, there was no need for it to be given sooner but then at 9pm and then not followed up.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/09/2016 12:10

'I don't think exploring all medical/mental health possibilities is 'conversion therapy' its certainly not helpful at all for TRAs insist that's the case.'

Transitioning via hormones/surgery for people who experience a mismatch between their biological sex and 'gender' could be viewed as the ultimate 'conversion therapy'. I don't doubt it's the appropriate course of action for some trans people (transsexuals) but surely not for many other transgender people. There is nothing wrong with your 'gender' not matching your biology because 'gender' is just a load of bloody stereotypes. You should not have to alter your biology to make it fit your 'gender'. You are who you are, a unique individual and if society has a problem with that then it shouldn't be you who has to change.

schbittery · 01/09/2016 10:58

I also find the MN non-response extraordinary, given that the top 3 threads in @site stuff@ at the moment are:

  • worrying about the influence of the TA mobvement on women's rights
  • complaining about all the trans threads on the site
  • complaining about the first thread (of course sensibly turned into more discussion around the topic of the first thread, as you would expect on a site largely populated by women)

I have been told that they have staff members and/or sponsors affiliated with the TA movement so that is no doubt why. Wouldn't bother me on, say, a caravanning forum, but on Mumsnet it's pretty spineless (or appears to be)

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 01/09/2016 10:48

You're right - should have used the word members. The rest is perfectly reasonable.

Bambambini · 01/09/2016 10:40

Customers? Why not ask for a refund and compensation. Demand that Kate gets a good reprimmand, maybe official warning if not dismissed for unprofessional working paractice. Need to get priorities is order.

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