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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

991 replies

OlennasWimple · 30/08/2016 22:23

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

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19
Kropotkinator · 02/09/2016 14:46

That's a facile and facetious question, but honestly?! 'Cis privilege'

Because now Starto experience misogyny without trying to is a privilegeStar.

microferret · 02/09/2016 14:31

Snowflake of course you are 100% correct. I want Fruit to tell us why she thinks that we are wrong.

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 02/09/2016 14:22

The child and adolescent brain should not be tested on with hormone therapies and puberty blockers. It should be standard practice that under the age of 21 at the very least - because this is usually the point teens/young adults stop growing, have reached their mature bodies and the changes with puberty are pretty much done - Is not given any sort of puberty blocker or transition treatment. Until the facts of such treatment are fully understood and young adults can make an informed decision and they are more aware about their desires for children etc. even then it might be the case it's not advised at all or even banned. because this is what happens with new treatments if the risk outweighs the benefits. It's banned or used in only extreme cases.

PacificDogwod · 02/09/2016 14:22

Can transpeople be 'cisphobic'??

That's a facile and facetious question, but honestly?! 'Cis privilege'

microferret · 02/09/2016 14:17

KondosSecretJunkRoom your post made me laugh! Yeah cis privilege for women is just great isn't it. I love exercising the privilege of being talked over, belittled and interrupted, or sexually harassed at work, in bars, in clubs, on public transport, on the street, online and even whilst 8 months pregnant. I'm actually 9 weeks pregnant again and let me tell you just how much I enjoyed vomiting my cis privilege into the toilet first thing this morning! pure exhilaration. No doubt I'll be smugly exercising my cis privilege as my baby bursts out of my vagina, then I can just bask in the glow of pure privilege as the doctor stitches me up.

It's probably terribly insensitive of me to talk about this though - Julia Serano might be reading!

BeyondASpecialSnowflake · 02/09/2016 14:13

I don't think there is a single person here who wants transpeople to come to harm!! It's just a nonsense straw man woman that anyone here is actually transphobic.

PacificDogwod · 02/09/2016 14:11

I want trans people to be able to live lives free of violence, hate and discrimination. I believe it is possible to achieve this without rejecting biological fact and years of scientific consensus, and without trampling all over women's rights to female-only spaces, spaces that we still desperately need. I don't see why this is hateful or phobic.

Me too.

makeslogicalsensetome2 · 02/09/2016 14:08

Our children are guinea pigs.They admit their baseline is too general and they cannot give 100 % reliable outcomes for children who are given synthetic hormones and blockers. They also admit cross sex hormones change the way the brain works so the 70-80% of kids who normally outgrow their transgender feelings may not do so after using hormones.

Its better to allow children the freedom to express themselves with no societal repercussions that to medically intervene until more studies have been done.

microferret · 02/09/2016 14:04

Fruit, we are all interested in equality for everyone. And in an equal society, no minority group should get to try to redefine reality in a way that is severely detrimental to 50% of the population. No group should be able to demand that the whole of society engages in a mass delusion in order to validate their collective identity. Many trans women do not demand this, but a very vocal and influential minority do.

I want trans people to be able to live lives free of violence, hate and discrimination. I believe it is possible to achieve this without rejecting biological fact and years of scientific consensus, and without trampling all over women's rights to female-only spaces, spaces that we still desperately need. I don't see why this is hateful or phobic. Please enlighten me.

makeslogicalsensetome2 · 02/09/2016 13:55

FruitCider Fri 02-Sep-16 12:27:55
MTT are not "men in dresses" for goodness sake. Stop being hysterical!

Experience taught me that some definitely are which is where the umbrella LGBTI is deceiving. These terms are all separate but have been appropriated under the same banner. Equality for all is the favoured outcome I agree.
That means women and children should have a voice. Also read up on how synthetic hormones and blockers affect the system and minds of children, with physical outcomes such as blood clots a reality.
Due to the nature of how MTT surgery is performed it sometimes results in fistulas, the constant need to be vigilant for infections and its not an exact science. Detransitioning can be a nightmare too. Do honest research on the reality rather than the politically correct version.

RE- Sex work. Here is an article from a male perspective. In Defense of Johns.
The author doesn't have a clue. Like a lot of men he has his own illusions on the sex industry. He thinks women really enjoy it. Very few sex workers retire rich. There is a couple of reasons they don't.

time.com/3087616/defense-johns-legalize-prostitution/

BeyondASpecialSnowflake · 02/09/2016 13:27

Urgh, a tad OT, but I was reading some sex positive thing about vibrators existing for over 100 years, yay masturbation!! Ignoring that they were invented by mh doctors as 'treatment' for hysteria... Angry

ErrolTheDragon · 02/09/2016 13:19

And also leads one not to remember not to be entirely trusting of the medical profession. I wonder how on earth they came up with that remarkable 'therapy'? Puts the odd TUBE into perspective...

anyway, we digress...

OscarDeLaYenta · 02/09/2016 13:18

Maybe we need to just try it out and see what earns a deletion, a suspension or a ban.

I have deliberately 'misgendered' a selection of MTT, who insist on the pronoun 'she' on I am Still Spartacus. No comment from MNHQ. Perhaps this is what is needed to get MNHQ to respond.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/09/2016 13:16

Yes...

hysteria
once termed to be a disorder of only women (thus the root words being hyster, as it was originally thought that the uterus was a free floating object in a woman's body, and when lost would cause her to be hysterical), the original cure was for the doctor to masturbate the woman.
mostly it is characterized by uncontrollable emotion, be it amusement, fear, etc, in a given situation.

Once you know the history of the term, you can see why it's not a great one to throw at a feminist while simultaneously being trans-exclusionary. A real corker.

KondosSecretJunkRoom · 02/09/2016 13:13

Ah, hysteria, the curse of the wandering womb.

Female biology has been levied against the female sex for an eternity and all the while apparently we've been spunking our cis privilege up the wall.

DropYourSword · 02/09/2016 13:07

Izzy MTT are not "men in dresses" for goodness sake. Stop being hysterical!

That's not what she was saying though. And she wasn't being hysterical!

StatisticallyChallenged · 02/09/2016 13:00

Jesus I was kind of joking, talk about trying to rewrite other people's identity in order to validate your own!

And Fruit

"Izzy MTT are not "men in dresses" for goodness sake. Stop being hysterical!"

Well, that's kind of the whole point of a lot of these threads - defining what is a man (and woman) and where you draw the line between them. -Some people say you're a woman if you say you are.
-Some people say you're a woman only if you are born XX with female sex organs.
-Some say broadly that but that they would call someone fully transitioned a woman.
(there are other lines too!)

Most of the Spartacus thread posters fall in to the second two groups and so by that definition a TW is, in fact, a man in a dress. Not hysterical in the slightest.

IzzyIsBusy · 02/09/2016 12:54

I'm pretty sure the attempts to abolish sex work ARE excluding sex workers and their voices, driving their work underground, risking their safety, and making it impossible to work legally.

Holbeck in Leeds has been given a legal time frame where sex workers can legally be as can their punters. If i remember correctly it was only a matter of months before a sex worker was found murdered in a bush. So much for legalisation being safer.

By the way protitution is illegal in this country, rarely benifits the women, is usually run by men, drugs play a large part as does mental health. But hey wanting this trade abolished is all about silencing the female sex workers voices. Nothing to do with it being dangerous for the women at all.

BeyondASpecialSnowflake · 02/09/2016 12:53

I'd also, while we're looking for sources, love to know some details on what these radical feminists who are pro-sex work and pro-genderism believe?

I suspect you are mixing up radical (the theory) with radical (extreme)...?

makeslogicalsensetome2 · 02/09/2016 12:52

StatisticallyChallenged ..'the transgender person has always been a woman and so their body has always been female - does that mean that the woman who married a man and had sex with a man is now a lesbian? .'

Turns out in my case I was told I may have sensed my ex's feminine core which made me possibly Bisexual and I was offered support to talk about how I felt living with a woman but shut down when I didn't agree he was a woman. Where is the equal rights in that?
Asking questions is not violence however making women move over make room without asking them first is self serving and egotistical in my opinion. Men are not being asked to do it .
MTT worry male bathrooms are not safe because men may assault them. Is anyone making men be accountable, and scoot over to make room for Trans people in the same way women are expected to?
Add to that only a small number actually have bottom surgery and there is no need to wait years to change their ID anymore. People don't have to present as specific gender and we are not allowed to ask as its taking away from their authentic experience. Its confusing.

IzzyIsBusy · 02/09/2016 12:47

Stop being hysterical!

Fruit are you a man?

That kind of comment is said by men to women when they want to shut them up. It was usually followed by a quick slap ya know just to calm those hysterical women down.Hmm

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 02/09/2016 12:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

microferret · 02/09/2016 12:42

This is what legalised prostitution looks like Fruit. It ain't pretty, and it certainly isn't empowering for women www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/15/hells-angels-brothel-raided-by-900-officers-say-german-police

FruitCider · 02/09/2016 12:42

I'm certainly not interested in trans activism in its vile forms where people are threatened etc. What I'm interested in is people, I want equality for everyone.

FruitCider · 02/09/2016 12:40

Errol pretty sure someone accused me of pearl clutching up thread Wink