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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

991 replies

OlennasWimple · 30/08/2016 22:23

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

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TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 02/09/2016 15:54

Oh of course but I just wanted to highlight the popularity of such porn and it's usually accessed by men. Men are the ones driving it. Not women.

microferret · 02/09/2016 15:52

Trans women are absolutely affected by sex work and the violence that comes with it. And the irony is that the people who want to end sex work, and end male violence, and abolish gender so that people can present as they wish without fear, are the very people that the trans lobby treats as the ultimate enemy. It would be funny if it wasn't so fucking tragic.

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 02/09/2016 15:51

Granted clips/vids total doesn't give full facts but does give a hint to the popularity of that type of porn.

Given that bondage - made popular by eg 50shades and similar booksand everyone was trying it last year - only brings in 45k hits...

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 02/09/2016 15:46

Just checked the Popular free porn sites

There are between 50-60k vids each with transwomen MtF or similar tags.

For transmen FtM and similar tags fewer than 2k.

That to me says transgender people can/are affected by sex work and the violence that comes with it.

FRETGNIKCUF · 02/09/2016 15:46

*Fruit
*
many voices wishing to abolish sex work are sex work survivors.

FRETGNIKCUF · 02/09/2016 15:44

*Fruit
*
Are you MTT?

venusinscorpio · 02/09/2016 15:35

My last in response to Olenna's about the intersectional nature of violence against trans women.

venusinscorpio · 02/09/2016 15:33

You rarely see that commented on Olenna. As you say, numbers of murdered trans women (who are mainly involved in prostitution in developing countries) are consistent with the much larger numbers of murders of women in those countries generally. Male violence rates are very high in these countries. If liberal feminists weren't so in love with the idea of "sex work" and hating all SWERFs they might like to take a look at that, and why so many trans women in developing countries are involved in prostitution and therefore more vulnerable to male violence.

OlennasWimple · 02/09/2016 15:33

In the interests of balance (and because I'm not saying that it never happens), here is a report of three women charged with attacking a transwoman in Long Beach earlier this year

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OlennasWimple · 02/09/2016 15:28

Absolutely, micro. Angry

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microferret · 02/09/2016 15:25

Just reading that list, Olenna. Obviously all those violent homophobic men who killed these transwomen did so directly after a reading binge of Dworkin, Greer, Bindel and Reilly-Cooper. There's no other possible explanation.

WankingMonkey · 02/09/2016 15:25

Wankingmonkey let's be honest, some of them don't even bother to wear a dress. Danielle Muscato, anyone?

Well exactly. They are simply guys who dislike that women don't bow down to them. This is the new way to silence women while eroding their rights and claiming entitlement to their bodies. Is the way I see it.

microferret · 02/09/2016 15:21

Wankingmonkey let's be honest, some of them don't even bother to wear a dress. Danielle Muscato, anyone?

microferret · 02/09/2016 15:20

But it's still definitely the fault of feminists. We literally have blood on our hands. Apparently.

OlennasWimple · 02/09/2016 15:18

Interesting list of "unlawfully killed transgender people" here. Aside from the fact that too many cases remain unsolved, or were not properly investigated at the time, it's striking that where a conviction has been brought the perpetrators are all men (and one transwoman)...

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StatisticallyChallenged · 02/09/2016 15:17

But everyone else is getting to invent new words, I want a shot

microferret · 02/09/2016 15:17

Well obviously the trans lobby likes to ignore that fact, because it's easier to blame and bully feminists than it is to solve the problem of male violence.

WankingMonkey · 02/09/2016 15:16

Izzy MTT are not "men in dresses" for goodness sake. Stop being hysterical!

But men in dresses are included in the whole trans-umbrella and these men in dresses are exactly what people are protesting to? You cannot simply say 'I am a woman in my pink brain' and that is that. And honestly I don't understand why more transsexual people (genuine ones, not blokes on a power trip) do not stand up and say 'look, this isn't trans' and distance themselves from it all.

OlennasWimple · 02/09/2016 15:12

"cisphobia" = "misogyny" - again, no need to invent a new word when there's an existing one Smile

What of the intersectionality that sees transwomen in many countries statistically more likely to be working in the sex industry than women? And that sex worker transwomen are statistically more likely to be murdered (as with women sex workers) than non-sex worker transwomen?

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PolterGoose · 02/09/2016 15:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

microferret · 02/09/2016 15:06

Wow, found this gem

www.theestablishment.co/2016/04/21/anti-trans-feminists-are-more-dangerous-than-religious-zealots/

The author goes on about how "white cis feminists" are totally responsible for the murders of trans women of colour, even though the people who murder trans women of colour tend to be johns, who are probably the people in society least likely to be influenced by what radical feminists think. The writer talks about being trans and how awful these white cis feminists are, how instrumental in their oppression, but when you scroll down to see their photograph this person presents unambiguously as male. It's just breathtaking.

venusinscorpio · 02/09/2016 15:04

Any thoughts Fruit?

venusinscorpio · 02/09/2016 15:02

That was to Krop's post re "cis privilege"

venusinscorpio · 02/09/2016 15:01

Yes. For example mainstream trans media pundit Paris Lees, loved by C4 and the BBC, tells us all about how lucky we are to experience street harassment.

Here is a quote from this fantastic article:

"I wasn't brought up in this way (my bold) and I don't feel frightened when some spunky dude comes and talks to me."

Well now Paris, you don't say.

www.vice.com/en_uk/read/enjoying-catcalls-paris-lees-column

Atenco · 02/09/2016 14:52

I don't live in the UK and have no personal experience of these problems, but what must upsets me is the idea of children being encouraged to take these life-altering steps, especially as, AFAIK, nobody had this problem until the medical treatment for it was invented.

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