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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

991 replies

OlennasWimple · 30/08/2016 22:23

As the Spartacus thread is about to reach capacity, here's a new thread to discuss MNHQ's response to the issues raised on that thread and in a few other places over the last week or so.

is lesphobic to insist that a lesbian likes penis. Feck off with that shite.
Add message | Report | Message poster KateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 30-Aug-16 21:08:00
Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

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19
TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 02/09/2016 23:49

I'm thinking in the way language is used.
Thinking of the number of times transactivists have yelled transphobic at groups using 'vagina'.
At the numbers of women left confused that they have been erased by seemingly innocuous language.

Language is so very important in issues like this and its so important to call a spade a spade not a 'flat diggy thing' so people understand what you are saying, the struggles you are describing and that you are all, essentially, on the same page.

this is why it doesn't help trans people or women to alter language like this when the terminology used is so emotive and so very important.

Lalsy · 02/09/2016 23:40

Felascloak, that's my worry too. Blistory, great post, I do see what you mean. Feel reclaiming clear, accurate language and space may e important in taking those thing forward though, I suppose. I will think more.

And I have seen lots of posts from people saying they have de lurked/engaged/changed their minds because of these threads, and I think MNHQ have clarified at least some of the issues from their POV. And I think it is a good thing for my blood pressure that I cannot open that guide.....

KimmySchmidtsSmile · 02/09/2016 23:11

badging I cannot say if it helps trans people or not. I am not trans so cannot speak for them or tell them how to feel or, for that matter, that their feelings are invalid "feelz". If a person feels something it tends to be valid for that individual.
The transactivists are not helping trans people.
But the leaflet has been designed to promote safe sex for trans people: with that in mind they do not want to alienate their audience. We are not that audience.

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 02/09/2016 23:04

The reasoning and logic behind it, to use non-offensive language for a specific group to open up conversations, its not a bad thing but when you twist meanings of words especially when they mean a lot to a much bigger % of the population it creates a problem.

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 02/09/2016 23:00

Yes kimmy but then there will be an expectation that everyone else must conform to and know this change in language and the fact it differs wildly from biological fact doesn't help.

and to me... not calling a vagina a vagina is papering over the issue the person has with the word and the fact they have a vagina and hate it. Surely a big part of transitioning should include helping the person be comfortable and work through the negativity and shame with the biology they have not pretend it doesn't exist?

It doesn't help trans people and it doesn't help the rest of us either.

KimmySchmidtsSmile · 02/09/2016 22:58

testosterone

although Courtney's mum inspired her band name by being a narc by the sounds of it "you can't always have a hole running through you Courtney"

CL needs to go to the stately homes thread.

JedRambosteen · 02/09/2016 22:57

Whilst I might not agree with it (sounds too much like "front bottom" "hole for fucking") having looked at the document in question it is clear that they are using front hole* for trans men not cis women. I am guessing if those who are trans masculine hate their vagina but need to be informed of changes to it (as a result of taking testerone) then it is useful to them in that context.

It is still anatomically inaccurate for FTT.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 02/09/2016 22:56

leaflet has been designed for a different demographic

Yes, but that different demographic still interacts with the rest of the world. You just can't take a word already in use, that had a specific meaning, and randomly decide it means something completely different. At the very least it is confusing.

KimmySchmidtsSmile · 02/09/2016 22:50

^
You missed out DICK: referring to external genitals.

Whilst I might not agree with it (sounds too much like "front bottom" "hole for fucking") having looked at the document in question it is clear that they are using front hole* for trans men not cis women. I am guessing if those who are trans masculine hate their vagina but need to be informed of changes to it (as a result of taking testerone) then it is useful to them in that context.
Much as though I am sure some might prefer vagina to be used and for a clit, whether it's grown 2cm or not, not to be referred to as a 'dick' that leaflet has been designed for a different demographic, where pouches, manginas and cock socks would also not be welcome.
Interesting to note said leaflet refers to Trans masculine and Trans feminine.

  • although Courtney Love didn't seem to have a problem with the word hole.
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 02/09/2016 22:47

I prefer this to transman/transwoman

It's certainly more consistent in terms of sex vs gender.

StatisticallyChallenged · 02/09/2016 22:46

I found something in that godawful document I can actually agree with:

TRANSFEMININE: Anyone who was assigned male at birth and
now identifies with femininity.

TRANSMASCULINE: Anyone who was assigned female at birth
and now identifies with masculinity

I prefer this to transman/transwoman

Fedupofallthemud · 02/09/2016 22:44

Front hole
Ffs
I'm speechless that anyone could think that's ok

Felascloak · 02/09/2016 22:44

kimmy I had to Google Nate Parker, I didnt know anything about him. Perhaps its not been discussed because he's better known in the US? Consent in sex is important and we do have regular, intensely frustrating, long threads about those kinds of cases. I try to avoid them now because I find so many peoples rape apologist depressing and entirely predictable.
The trans thing is quite new and its many impacts on women are only now becoming apparent, so I'm not surprised its being discussed. Man rapes woman, claims she said yes is as old as the hills. Woman murders father, with accompanying picture of said woman (Claire Derbyshire) sporting a beard, is quite new and noteworthy.

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 02/09/2016 22:35

I call my vagina a vagina. I haven't even called it anything else since I was a child and that revolved around fanny, front bottom and lady garden. But it is most definately a vagina and never a front hole.

this lady is ranting for me on this teatimewithmissb.wordpress.com/2015/06/07/vaginas-are-now-front-holes-and-other-stupidity-of-sjws/

this sums it up perfectly I owe no one my linguistic charity

JedRambosteen · 02/09/2016 22:31

My quite was toCancelly.

JedRambosteen · 02/09/2016 22:31

Quite.

StepAwayFromTheThesaurus · 02/09/2016 22:31

That is horrendous. Front hole, indeed!

I also agree with Blister. It's much more than being nice or smoothing over feelings or even taking the moral high ground. It's about communicating your points effectively.

I think it's important not to sneer about autogynophiles etc. That doesn't mean discounting autogynophilia as a possible explanation, just not positioning it as a laughable perversion. That doesn't help anyone and it simply alienates people.

Being gender critical means that we need to recognise that men are harmed by gender stereotypes too. Again, that isn't an 'oh what about the poor menz' position. It's to recognise that patriarchal gender stereotypes constrain us all. Contemporary transactivism is a deeply conservative (and problematic) response to this, but to dismiss it entirely is to miss the point and, in doing so, to fail to provide a robust response to logics that reinforce the gender binary and insist that those who don't conform must transition to the other side.

CancellyMcChequeface · 02/09/2016 22:28

If that 'front hole' thing is real and not some sort of parody, I think I just reached a whole new level of peak trans.

Would any woman describe their genitals as a 'hole'? Sounds like the sort of thing said by particularly misogynist men. A front hole for fucking.

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 02/09/2016 22:27

How is dismissing biological fact helpful? Its basically pretending it doesn't not exist Shock

I really hope it is fake because if that is real then that is a big part of the problem.

JedRambosteen · 02/09/2016 22:27

Of course, on reflection the reason a woman's urethra doesn't even register is because it is of no interest to men - can't stick a dick in it. Hmm

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 02/09/2016 22:23

Am I reading that right?

Yup. The guide makes quite interesting reading. As far as I can tell it is a legitimate guide by the "HRC Foundation, the educational arm of the nation’s largest lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer (LGBTQ) civil rights organization, and Whitman-Walker Health, a community health center with special expertise in LGBTQ and HIV-related care". I thought at first it might have been written by TERFs to highlight the ridiculousness of some of these things, but no, it appears to be genuine (am happy to be corrected if I am being totally gullible)

TwatbadgingCuntfuckery · 02/09/2016 22:21

Wait, am I reading the PDF right a front hole is an actual vagina - the one a woman is born with.

but a vagina is what transwomen have? Hmm

If that's right er... wtf?

Felascloak · 02/09/2016 22:19

I like your post blistory. I swing between agreeing re: being respectful but then thinking that allowing things like cis/preferred pronouns has enabled encroachment onto other boundaries. Maybe things like the sporting stuff wouldn't have happened if women were more vocal about protecting their identity at first, rather than enabling the "a woman is anyone who says they are a woman". I feel like a lot of this stuff has happened by stealth and by manipulating women's desires to be accomodating.

JedRambosteen · 02/09/2016 22:18

Am I reading that right? Is a biological/born woman's vagina a 'front hole', demoted behind an artificially/surgically created pouch which is now a 'vagina' proper?

When I share some of the stuff that comes up on these threads with DH, he is always "WTF?" I think this gem might actually fritz his brain. That's quite some appropriation of language. Also, inaccurate. My front hole is my urethra/pee hole. My vag is the middle one. Way to go MTTs! I'm glad my 'birthing person' days are behind me, as I'd hate to have to squeeze a baby out of my urethra.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 02/09/2016 22:03

WRT to defining a transwoman (or man) this newly produced guide may be useful....

“Today, the HRC Foundation, the educational arm of the nation’s largest lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer (LGBTQ) civil rights organization, and Whitman-Walker Health, a community health center with special expertise in LGBTQ and HIV-related care, released Safer Sex for Trans Bodies, a comprehensive sexual health guide for transgender and gender expansive people and their partners. The guide fills a significant gap in inclusive, publicly-available sexual health resources for transgender and gender expansive people."

hrc-assets.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.comfiles/assets/resources/Trans_Safer_Sex_Guide_FINAL.pdf (triggers a PDF download)

In this, the term trans is defined as:

"TRANS: Anyone and everyone who feels they are part of the transgender community, including folks who identify outside of the gender binary. Being trans does not necessarily mean that you have had surgery, want to transition or use specific pronouns. It’s all about how you understand yourself.”

It also helpfully defined a few other terms to avoid any confusion, for example:

FRONT HOLE: We use this word to talk about internal genitals, sometimes referred to as a vagina. A front hole may self-lubricate, depending on age and hormones.

VAGINA: We use this word to talk about the genitals of trans women who have had bottom surgery.”

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