Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

That transface link..seems a huge number of transsexuals have not got the memo that they are supposed to include men who are obviously men as trans now. Surely all Bomer has to say right now is 'I identify as female in my pink brain' and all of the abuse will stop? Thats how it works right?

A transman is a woman.

I'm perfectly aware of that. I agreed with the Spartacus thread. I worded my sentance deliberately that way because people hate 'non-trans' or 'cis' and are adamant that 'woman' is perfectly fine. Which it is. Hence my separation of the two by using the term woman and transman. So yes, a transman is of course actually a woman, but if they prefer to refer to their own vagina as a front hole then I have no issue with that.
I used to work as a midwife in the UK and if I were looking after a transman in labour I would refer to their vagina as a front hole if that were their preference. Similarly, if I was having a sexual relationship with someone, I would have enough care and respect for that person to use terminology they preferred.

Oh the irony, #transface was all over my twitter feed earlier, what about #womanface.

errol of course. Its such a bloody mess. Dangerously so :(

Thats a good point ferret RE the religious context. It really is a 'cure' for blurred gender roles.

Its not really FERT, its women exclusionary men. Oh wait, thats just normal misogynistic, patriarchal society, we cant call it a 'phobia' because its so normal. And TAs are appropriating 'woman'. XXphobia.

Not waffling at all Twat, this discussion is so important and it's good to thrash out ideas like this. Re. rigid gender boundaries, I always look to Iran, where transition is totally accepted, even encouraged and sometimes forced on gay men. Iran is a highly patriarchal society and its continuance depends on there being a superior and inferior class of people - men and women. Any transgression of gender boundaries undermines the conservative religious principle that god made men and women differently, and therefore must be eradicated. This convinces me that a lot of our motivation in the West to promote transition also comes from a similar desire to preserve the status quo, and to keep men on top where they think they belong.

That's interesting point ferret the gender boundaries needing to remain rigid. I had wondered if it was risky to even consider TG as being a psychiatric disorder because of how vitriolic TRAs can become. I do, to an extent, think that it is but I have to tread carefully when discussing this possibility publicly. Especially when you have evidence that a lot of trans people post transition with or without a surgical outcome - are still unhappy, still have high rates of depression, anxiety, BDD, PTSD and alcohol and drug misuse. Which is the biggest trans issue tbh and that isn't going to solved by changing terminology or shutting down feminists.

I agree all this has done is make feminism a pain in the arse atm. I am personally finding it very difficult to converse with a friend who does think 'TERFs' are horrible and has shut down my own questioning over terminology with 'why does it matter you aren't trans?' when it absolutely does because its changing the baselines that have existed for 100s of years. That I know help define me as a woman.

With the hatred aimed at gender critical feminists and the use of the word TERFs to shut down very important conversations though interestingly if feminists used 'Feminist Exclusionary Radical Trans' (I know its not in usage ) because our concerns and needs weren't addressed there would be uproar and could potential be guilty of a hate crime :(

I know I'm waffling now. Downside to saturday off! Time to sit and think about these things in more detail even if I still don't know where I stand or what some of it means :/

Atenco I read the beginning of that thread, and was half tempted to bring that double standard up. But didn't.

It just seems so ridiculous that a young teen could be put on the path of no return, but a adult mother isn't deemed to know there own mind.

Its interesting you bringing up what has happen in New Mexico, and makes wonder who/why/what is behind this sudden aggressive movement.

Interesting that there was a poster the other day, who hasn't found any type of contraception that suits her and already has a couple of children, was complaining that she cannot be sterilised in the NHS because she is too young, while at the same time, teenagers are being sterilised to turn them into transgenders.

I must admit to being very curious about the sudden rise of this issue. I live in Mexico City and in 2013, completely out of the blue they ran a campaign to end discrimation against transgenders. Nobody had any idea why this was an issue in a place where there is serious discrimination against the indigenous people and there has never been a campaign against that.

Great point Cote

I think the reason that two are treated with therapy and one is treated with surgery is that as a society we are still very uncomfortable with the transgression of gender boundaries - mainly because this challenges the patriarchy - and this is a great way to wrest back power from feminism. Pathologise normal feelings of failing to identify with stereotypes, reinforce notions of masculinity/femininity, force everyone to label themselves with meaningless jargon, and make the class struggle of females impossible by taking away their ability to define and organise themselves.

The inevitable, devastating backlash against feminism - cloaked in progressivism. Utterly terrifying.

I may waffle. Please skip if you feel the need.... OK I googled that thinking it wasn't a thing... that is surely another dysmorphia/dysphoria type disorder and its interesting that its considered a psychiatric disorder that needs appropriate treatment. Like BDD etc but to have similar feelings about one's gender...? It certainly confuses matters and puts another slant on the medical side of transitioning.

given each condition - Gender Dysphoria , Body Integrity Identity Disorder and Body Dysmporphic Disorder leaves sufferers with a feeling of unease and being uncomfortable in their bodies/with parts of their bodies.. that can lead to depression anxiety etc?

Its quite striking how 2 are considered psychiatric conditions that must be treated with the right therapy and/or medication and one... DRs agree and help the person make physical changes. After all they wont amputate a healthy limb but will remove healthy reproductive organs. Where is the ethics here?

OK its probably not to have the time and place to have this discussion but seeing that now NonHypotheticalLurkingParent your wariness over your DCs desire to transition and mistrust? of the transagenda and medics making it possible. I understand it much more now.

Or like a 'transabled' person (an able-bodied person who feels he must be disabled - I kid you not) saying we shouldn't call his legs "legs" because that is 'triggering' and not what he wants to hear.

Yeah, well, those are legs.

And that is a vagina.

Yes, I agree entirely with you.
And I too am struggling to come to terms with what seems like such a bizarre counter-intuitive development.

To me it seems akin to telling people who have full use of their legs that they can no longer walk because it hurts a wheelchair users feelings. And I totally accept that it must be hard for somebody who is unable to walk/run to watch, say, children frolic in the park. But it does not make their play less 'normal' (oh, how I hate that word) or indeed desirable.

I suppose I am just hoping that by focussing on the issues the debate about nomenclature will become less important.

pacific

Actually changes in terminology normalise things and make it easier to change laws.

Not a particularly neat example because a lot of things are at play with this but it helps highlights my point - look at the vilification of the poor and disabled in the media - the media called them feckless, lazy, undeserving, scroungers, with countless TV shows showing the 'real' benefit scroungers. Examples of really bad human being who happened to be on benefits were centre stage -that horrid man philpott and others. We changed the terms how to describe people who have been unfortunate, had a bad run of luck and needed support. This then gave our shitty govt, with the backing of those who voted them in, the green light to make those cuts. IIRC some of the production companies and news media has links/ties/affiliations with politicians pushing forth these cuts.

The same could be said to be happening with some trans terminology. Change the meaning of the old terms, protest perceived misuse of accepted terminology that has been around for 100s of years (eg vagina), boycott companies who fall foul of the new 'rules', throw out as much 'positive media' using the 'correct' terminology and it becomes normalised in our everyday language.

Ok I may be oversimplifying and maybe terminology really isn't a big deal but we're at a point where we just don't know for sure and should question and should tread carefully.

I hope that made sense I am still struggling here with some of my own views on this whole thing.

Yeah, ok, tip of the ice berg, true.

But I cannot help but think that it is not what needs to be focussed on too much.
You want to called 'Jane' and be known as 'she'? - Fine
Can we now talk about how we don't think it is appropriate that you penis is in a women's bathroom?

I see changing pronouns and the reclassification of sexual organs, not as a smokescreen, more the tip of the ice berg.

It's deliberately using language to obfuscate reality, to crate a new reality that if you don't agree to you are transphobic

This I totally agree with, because there's no proven scientific evidence, language is all there is.

Are we expected to use the terms? Maybe not at the moment, I think that document comes from a group lobbying for change. We were certainly expected to different terms when talking to our daughter.

There may only be a small number of vocal TAs, but there are certainly a rapidly growing number of children identifying as trans. The number referred to the Tavisock has doubled in the last year, and that's just those referred. We live in a small town and my daughter had a group of 14 friends who all identified as trans, only 2 of which had been referred. They all expected the correct language to be used. We found that using the preferred pronouns did more harm than good. The more they were used, the more ingrained they became. The shame of going back to female pronouns probably gave an extra year of issues.

"They are referring to transmen's vaginas. NOT women's"

As you aptly said above, transmen's vaginas are still vaginas. That is the name of that organ and if it were in Prince Charles, it would be still called a vagina.

But they aren't doing that. They are referring to trans mens vaginas. NOT womens

A transman is a woman.

It's deliberately using language to obfuscate reality, to crate a new reality that if you don't agree to you are transphobic, a new reality that erases women.

Its pretty bloody scary.

Are they though

Yes, I think so.

Doctors would need to use "front hole" to a female patient to avoid being offensive, and vagina to a male

People sleeping with a transman would need to use "front hole" to avoid being offensive, or if a transwoman vagina.

Any body discussing these issues would need to use the "correct" terminology to avoid being seen as transphobic

Meanwhile vagina loses its meaning, appropriated by the TRAs

There's an overwhelming push by the trans lobby to erase women. It's this that will impact women, legal language, legal frameworks which makes women's spaces a thing of the past. The desire for trans validity as the opposite sex is currently outweighing the desire to protect women and girls.

It's like everyone is convinced women hold all the power and are harming and oppressing transwomen by saying we are biologically different.

It's so close to MRA shit it's untrue.

Some terminology is a red herring but if the perceived 'wrong' terminology is used and then that Is the basis to attack an event then it does become important. Surely? Claiming things are phobic for any reasons is another way to shut down a debate.

When women's groups in particular are faced with this the negative impact means that they often end up cancelling events and that does bugger all for women's or trans rights and they have been events that are open to all women and transpeople.

I have been wondering myself why they TRAs have gotten so popular/have such a seemingly loud voice over feminists give they are a minority of around 1% maybe less? It's very disproportionate and certainly have to agree the TRAs don't represent the people I know.

The pronouns, and even wheat individuals like to call their bits (I find 'flower' really quite upsetting ), are just red herrings. Or smokescreen - something to get het up about, while quite easily forgetting the wider issues.

Vociferous and aggressive TA are a small minority within the TS community which is itself are are small subset of society. While I wish individuals well and in my RL contact with transpeople am not in the least 'phobic' about them (stupid phrase, anyway), it still puzzled me how they have become so visible/audible. I now one FTM person who is very angry about the language and methods used and does NOT feel represented. Now, I know that the plural of anecdote does not data make, but FFS - lets fight for Women's Rights and a better world for everybody, including trans people without a TA agenda trampling over everything else.

NB I have learnt SO much beyond my previous wishy-washy, vaguely lefty-liberal feminism on MN, won't name names, but you know who you are

Yes. There is a growing expectation that these terms are used. For the majority of it it is aimed a women's events and spaces.

I've yet to see and article attacking a male event that uses dick, cock or penis or other term referring to male genitals as being exclusionary to transmen.

If you have, please share a link. I want to know if this is affecting men and women equally but from when I am standing I can only see this attacks on women and women's events and spaces and its almost all around vagina being used :/