Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

Not all women menstruate. It was referring to women that have a menstrual cycle. I don't buy tampons as I use contraception and don't bleed, therefore tampon tax campaigns, which I support, are not a major priority for me.

At any given time most women are not menstruating. That doesn't make us menstruators. If they really want to be inclusive why not "menstruating women and transmen" . Fucking disgraceful next-level 1983 shite.

My post was rather broader, but the figures alone would suggest that if the difference is solely due to autogynephilia, then assuming early onset occurred equally then roughly 3/4 of trans-feminines would theoretically be autogynephilic. If the early transitioning numbers are actually higher for women then that would suggest it's even more in order to end up at 80%.

But we're not supposed to talk about that particular elephant, even if it seems to have a hell of a lot of trunks!

I'm not convinced that the split between early onset homosexual transitioners and late=auto-g is true anymore though. I'm not sure the DSM is accounting for the current crop of 'gender queering' people who are identifying as trans but, IME, are just feminine men/masculine women, or a bit attention seeking (rather like the multitude of 'bisexual' females I went to school with who never had a female partner/relationship and are all married to men, twas quite the trend!)

StatisticallyChallenged: "Just looking at some figures and a recent review suggests 80% of those who identify as trans are "identified boys at birth" - or transfeminine/transwomen."

I'm assuming this survey includes all trans including older people. The DSM V (p455-456) says there 2 types of people diagnosed with gender dysphoria early and late onset:

"Adolescent and adult natal males with early-onset gender dysphoria are almost al­ ways sexually attracted to men (androphilic)."

"Adolescents and adults with late-onset gen­der dysphoria frequently engage in transvestic behavior with sexual excitement." And
"factors under consideration, especially in individuals with late-onset gender dysphoria (ad­olescence, adulthood), include habitual fetishistic transvestism developing into autogynephilia (i.e., sexual arousal associated with the thought or image of oneself as a woman) andother forms of more general social, psychological, or developmental problems."

There are also two types of females who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria: "Adolescent and adult natal females with early-onset gender dysphoria are almostalways gynephilic."

"Adolescents and adults with the late-onset form of gender dysphoria
are usually androphilic and after gender transition self-identify as gay men. Natal femaleswith the late-onset form do not have co-occurring transvestic behavior with sexual excitement."

Those diagnosed as children are gays and lesbians, those diagnosed later are het women and men, but women "do not have transvestic behaviour with sexual excitement." The reason there would be more trans males (transwomen) if the survey includes older people is obvious. Older men try to hide their motives and often claim to have 'felt like girls' since they were young, even though they have fathered children etc. There are many, many males with this motive, so if a survey includes them then there will certainly be more men included then women, since women do not have this motive for transing.

When it comes to children and that motive is removed there are far more girls than boys at least in the UK. A UK study found twice as many girls than boys were referred to a gender clinic. Of the 1,398 in 2015/16, 913 were for girls and 485 were for boys.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/11/referrals-for-young-transgender-people-double/

The implant actually stopped my periods (yay!) so I am not one of these 'menstruators' and haven't been for nearly 3 years now (4 if you include during pregnancy) but I still find the term fucking insulting. A woman is so much more than a monthly fucking bleed...ugh this is actually annoying me

I've tried to work out where they are coming from. But come to the conclusion that people who don't wish to hear the term "FGM" because they are trans and find it triggering (not due to the fact that little girls are being sliced up for misogynistic reasons, but because they don't agree with the use of the word "female") are just fucking narcissists.

micro it is bandied about on MRA sites. That feminists are fucks because they don't campaign for bans on circumcision.

Another point I refuse to state that is male circumcision because the female form is mutilation not circumcision.

FGM is one of my biggest peak trans issues, and one on which I find it impossible to remain polite. For the most part in these discussions I try to work out where the other side is coming from in order to avoid coming across as being as unhinged as the extreme transactivists, and having my point lost in the noise. But on renaming FGM to "child genital mutilation" because really the thing we should be worrying about most is the hypothetical possibility that a child to whom this abomination was carried out might grow up to identify as trans... I'm afraid the only response I can muster to someone who comes out with this crap is "fuck off to the far side of fuck and when you get there fuck off some more."

They can fuck right off with trying to rename FGM too. No, your narcissistic hurt feelings do NOT trump the rights of little girls not to be sexually mutilated. WTAF is wrong with these people?

To further Matilda's point, the tax on sanitary products is also part of a larger picture of discrimination against WOMEN - if men used them, they wouldn't be taxed. Just like the abortion issue, by trying to stop us using the word women the regressive left is denying us the ability to name our oppression.

Really Fruit, if all you are capable of doing in this debate is dropping in to make silly nonsense points that convince nobody, you are probably doing your cause more harm than good.

indeed jed they are all still things that affect only women.

stat Actually I can see a whole line of products that could have 'for ejaculators' as the tagline...

Lynx - for ejaculators

Ok back to serious stuff..

yes they tried to compare FGM to circumcision. When there is no medical need for FGM but there can be a medical need for circumcision.

I can't imagine durex ever being advertised as " for ejaculators" either.

My local asda had a woman's health section with tampax etc but also tenants lady. I want them moved to another area. I find the idea that pregnancy and childbirth may make me incontinent one day triggering.

I've heard protests against the term FGM too.

That's very true, Twat, and pregnant women (who are most definitely not menstruating) also need pads sometimes for discharge. It's a stupid thing to write when 'women' works just fine.

Hey fruit your logic is flawed. Sanitary products are not just used by women with periods. They are used by post-menopausal women for discharge. Women mid-cycle for discharge that increases during ovulation. Up until recently when incontinence pads were thick and uncomfortable women used sanitary pads to catch minor urine leakage. Some women still do because they are often cheaper and easier to get from a corner shop.

So to even suggest it is to stop any offence to women who cannot menstruate is a little bit silly.

Actually, Jed I think your analogy works the other way round. Fruit is arguing that the term "menstruators" might not have been introduced in deference to the trans lobby, but might simply be to spare women like myself (stages in my life where due to PCOS I had no periods, now menopausal) emotional pain and the risk of being "triggered" (to which I say big hairy male bollocks and stuff your trigger warnings up your arse). But if she was right, let's try the following thought experiment. Imagine a leaflet for men in couples undergoing fertility treatment in which it talked about the timing and frequency of one's ejaculations so as to maximise sperm count. Can we ever imagine a situation where the men receiving such a leaflet might be referred to as "ejaculators" rather than "men", in deference to the men who can no longer ejaculate due to treatment for prostate problems (a situation someone very close to me is in, and incidentally a men's health issue which is very poorly represented, discussed and for which next to no help exists)? No we bloody well can't. Such a leaflet would never, ever be produced. And this distinction between the way men are treated and the way women are treated is important.

There is a great video someone linked to on one of these threads, which pointed out that talking about "pregnant persons" is the equivalent of a white person saying "black lives matter" should be replaced with "all lives matter." Abortion is a women's rights issue precisely because abortion is denied to so many women world wide because of institutionalised misogyny. To take the word "woman" out of the equation is to render this causal factor invisible, just as to insist "all lives matter" is to render invisible the fact that black people are disproportionately likely to be shot dead by police.

I might start referring to men as 'ejaculators' just to make a point.

Some men with prostate cancer would take issue with this, as one of the side effects of treatment is erectile dysfunction. But I get the general point you are making and agree "menstruators" is totally unacceptable. Women works just fine.

Don't be daft, Fruit, I had a hysterectomy at a young age so I'm not a "menstruator" at an age where the vast majority of women still are, and it's not being done to spare my feelings. I have never heard anyone in my situation or menopausal bemoan the fact that they don't have to buy sanpro anymore. Mourning lost fertility, body changes, feelings about being womanly, yes, all these things are difficult. Not having to spend a wodge of cash on tampons any more? YIPPEE!!! I skip past that aisle and heave a sigh of relief. But I still take part in campaigns to get tax taken off the products when I can, and to get girls in the third world access to sanpro so they can go to school, because it's a woman's issue and always will be.

I was just thinkin that! mrs I might start referring to men as 'ejaculators' just to make a point. I doubt it would take very long for men to point out they are Much more than the fact they ejaculate.

Mrs

Spunkers, I think

I hope to see campaigns for prostate/testicular cancer rebranded for 'ejaculators'.

Fruit

You are being obtuse and you know it. Fine that you don't agree with a lot of the trans stuff being debated here. But this is just stupid and fucking insulting.

I'm not personally fucking affected by lots of issues - I've never experienced FGM, been a child bride, been forced to wear a burka, had to cut my own fingers off for wearing nail polish or had to drop out of school due to lack of access to sanpro.

Doesn't mean I can't see how they're massive fucking injustices to WOMEN.

But hey, you're not personally impacted by sales tax on sanpro and your not currently having your life curtailed by men in your space, so fuck women who are, eh?

It would still be accurate to use women though as it doesn't say all women. You only need to use menstruator instead of women if you are trying to be inclusive to someone who is menstruating but does not believe that they are a woman

"Not all women menstruate. It was referring to women that have a menstrual cycle."

Fruitcider - you know fine well this term is only being used because of sensitivity to trans folk - it's not about upsetting 87 yr old Auntie Ina who hasn't had a period in 40 yrs.