Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

I'm beginning to think the whole thing is a social experiment, how much can we get away with, how far can we go. There are countries fighting for the right for female spaces to save lives and we are giving them away to anyone who asks.

or even scary

Massively homophobic, I have a lot of gay people in my family and I wonder if they would be allowed to be gay under the new rules. I have fought gender stereotyping all my life and now it's being rubber stamped with laws to back it up, very, very scarey.

Thank you for the link, as a lurker I found myself agreeing that young transition is child abuse and often homophobic.

Indeed Memories, I refuse to enter a state of cognitive dissonance that reduces the rights of my entire sex.

Still Spartacus.

This is interesting.

The other thing to bear in mind is that they won't be satisfied with that. They won't ever be satisfied as so much of their identity is bound up in resenting women for everything women do. Like MRAs.

So yes, it's here, it's happening and it's real and it needs to be stopped. We cannot allow yet another attempt to stop us talking openly and honestly about realities to succeed. The Church were successful in this centuries ago but ultimately failed (though that is arguable in some instances), ISIS are still trying to stop free speech, and now the transactivists are trying their luck. They know the easiest way to get what they want - free access to woman-only safe spaces - is to stop the conversation. Don't let them.

Hi I'm delurking, another Spartacus to say thank you to the women here who won't be shouted down and keep quietly and persistently stating their case.

On one of the many threads I've been reading, there has been scorn poured on the idea that intact male transwomen will be in female changing rooms in the UK.

It's misplaced scorn.

My child's university accepts 'trans' people as the gender they identify with, without the need for surgery, hormones or any physical transition, and says they should be assured access to single sex facilities.

So yes, it's here, it's happening and it's real.

One more thing, related to this thread. I've been looking at the African American community and many black women are also tired of men in dresses intimidating them and calling them horrific slurs.

Women of all cultures are sick of the transactivist shite.

Ah, apologies Housemouse! I am lazy, I should have gone back a bit, I must have missed that gem.

I agree. Fruit is either a clueless libfem who has swallowed Everyday Feminism whole or she's trolling. Either way, her posts are not what you'd call meaty, so best rise above. Anyone who calls me a TERF or a SWERF is someone I've already lost interest in. Lazy name calling.

Must say I've come up in the world. I thought I was just me. Turns out I'm a Radical Feminist, which makes me feel far more dynamic! I am woman. Hear me roar!

However I should have started supper an hour ago, and am dapping off to do same, which puts me back in my cosy mum place rather neatly.

Agree with you there microferret, I was trying to save venus from heading off to other threads to look for the reference . I think FruitCider probably won't be coming back anyway.

Also, Prawn that was a really interesting post, thank you

Venus:

Fruit made this comment on this thread. I've been away a few days and this morning went back and read about 10 pages and found it.

I couldn't help but respond so sorry if it's straying off topic. I'm a survivor of the sex industry. Fruit's comments to me are MRA/libfem bombast that cannot go unchallenged.

Housemouse might be a bit late to the thread with that response but she's still absolutely bang on the money. Fruit seems to be hopelessly misinformed about most of the issues discussed here and she's also arguably trolling. I suggest that we don't bother to engage with her further - it derails what is otherwise a very interesting and constructive thread.

PRAWN

I agree with you 110%. I have an account on a site where men are addicted to porn and I read intensively. I've found exactly what you describe. Men look for more and more sexual stimulation by going to the tranporn sections and then go on to describe classic autogynephilia. Many of them make posts like this 'AM I TRANS?'

The sexual component behind MtT cannot be understated. It's there the entire time.

In my view it's the major motivating factor.

venus I think Housemouse is referring to FruitCider's posts earlier in this thread:

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FruitCider Fri 02-Sep-16 12:13:55
Of course RadFem is not just about transitioning and the lack of support for it, RadFem also wants to abolish sex work and insists on calling consenting sex workers prostitutes, hence SWERF. Not all RadFems are TERFs or SWERFs, I have to add, but both of these ideologies stem from RadFem.

I don't use the term TERF or SWERF to shut down debate, I would rather have these conversations despite how uncomfortable they are. But by me using these terms, it makes it clear to the reader that my train of thought is that these debates are attempts to exclude transpeople and sex workers from certain areas of society and this line of thought is ignoring their voices.

Housemouse

Is this a post on the wrong thread in error? Which thread is this from, as it sounds like something I need to read? It doesn't surprise me that Fruit thinks we're horrible SWERFs as well as TERFs.

Fruit,

You seem to be completely misinformed. You write:

'I'm pretty sure the attempts to abolish sex work ARE excluding sex workers and their voices, driving their work underground, risking their safety, and making it impossible to work legally.'

Feminism is about women's and girls lives and we KNOW that women's and girls lives in the sex industry are HORRIFIC. Now, if you can't center women's and girls lives then you don't understand radical feminism. It's really simple and you just don't seem to comprehend this.

Another thing you don't understand is radical feminism is about ALL females, not a select few. So a few women saying prostitution is great and telling other women and men how lovely their lives are doesn't prove the rule that all women and girls suffer when they are disenfranchised through patriarchy so that the only thing left is to sell their body and soul to violent men.

Ending prostitution is about the big picture of ending male supremacy, male entitlement to women's bodies by disenfranchising women from sociopolitical and economic power.

When over 80% of women want OUT of prostitution, we take that very seriously. You think prostitution is 'work?' In what job does hostage negotiation become a focal point? In what job do you have to have panic buttons in the room so a man doesn't suffocate you?

In what Universe does a torture organization have to improve laws so that men who are found with ropes, cuffs and other equipment in his car should be stopped and charged? Do you know why those torture orgs want this legislation? Because johns are KNOWN to have these items for the express purpose of picking up a woman on the street and then using those items to TORTURE her. Men buy women in prostitution to VIOLATE THEM.

In my view, you're trolling. There are several places online to research the radical feminist position on prostitution and if you simply took the time to do this research you wouldn't be here making what I think are MRA-type bombastic statements like the one above.

Do the research first.

Forgot to add I too have no issue with transgender people and I really want there to be a good middle ground but that cannot happen until people with trans and identity issues get proper support to better pinpoint the issues and make sure it is for all the right reasons.

Thanks Prawnofthepatriarchy that clears up my early question re environmental factors heightening fetishes and sexual arousal.

I know men who have been very open about their fetish for females urinating. One confessed only being near and hearing a woman urinate meant he could ejaculate but porn if this nature was arousing just not to the same extent. I may be running in 'interesting' circles but most men I know (online and RL) have some fetish from just wearing female underwear to work to feminization/ sissy and location is a big factor for them with regards to their sexual experience.

It certainly makes the case for keeping women only spaces and keeping the definitation of a woman as someone with a vagina to protect the majority rather than change it to appease a minority.

I notice there is no female equivalent to autogynaephilia - it's not heard of / has never been recorded - which further supports the need for female only spaces.

And the obsession with lesbian porn certainly explains the vitriol towards lesbians who won't consider transwomen as sexual partners. Some do. But it's the almost expected 'I am a woman (with a penis) you must be attracted to me' and then the entitled transwomen do voice that entitlement with vile threatening ways in much the same manner as angry MRAs

Tumblr has a lot of anecdotal evidence from lesbian women of the abuse and accusations of being transphobic by transwomen just because they'll date trans men and bio women not them.

I've said it up thread it's so so messy. But the common factor appears to be some vocal and angry transwomen and I really hate generalising like that but that's what I am observing.

I think autogynephilia (AGP) and various philias/fetishes found among MtTs need more attention, because it's increasingly clear that many men transition for entirely sexual reasons. They go bonkers if anyone mentions that sexual motivation may be an underlying factor to transition, and yet if you lurk on transgender support sites you'll see men blatantly admit that it's all about what gets them hard.

I know I assumed when I first came across transsexuals that they were gay men who wanted SRS so they could fulfil their fantasy of having sex as women. I now know that 80% of MtTs have and intend to keep their penis and that the trans umbrella has stretched so far that an ever-increasing number of those who qualify as trans are what I'd consider cross-dressers: straight men who are sexually attracted to women. Given the amount of lesbian porn they watch, it's no wonder they're furious when they don't get the hot girl-on-girl action they deserve...

What used to be called sexual fetishes and are now called philias are very much more common among men than women and, as any police officer can tell you, men will take astonishing risks to fulfill them. A number of fairly common ones are directly related to wanting access to women-only spaces. There's various types of voyeurism, including being aroused by witnessing women urinating/defecating and there's exhibitionism, which includes bog standard "flashing" but includes exposing their genitals while dressed as a woman, with the fear or shock of the women who witness it being part of what's desired. Men sometimes hide in women-only spaces to hear or see women perform natural functions. They use cameras/recording devices to allow them to store this home-made porn.

I am not claiming that these are the only motivation behind transition. Certainly not. There are lots and lots of men who indulge these philias while just being men. One recent example was of a man who masturbated on women's clothing he was trying on in a changing room. But there are plenty of incidents in which MtTs enjoy their paraphilias to the harm or distress of women. In the same month a transwoman was caught taking photos of a woman changing, chased out of the store and arrested.

It's becoming cool to be trans, particularly for men, and I'm certain that porn has a lot to do with the explosion of interest in transition. A 2015 report from CNBC tells us that sales of transgender porn have increased 14 percent in the past year, and now make up 10 percent of its overall revenue.

From the International Business Times site comes this quote: "When asked if transgender porn was his most popular genre, porn studio Evil Angel VP Adam Grayson answered: "In terms of revenue per scene or movie? Hands down, without a question. Nothing even touches it. And it's been that way for decades, since the early days of it. And we sell it at a price premium. Let's say an Evil Angel wholesale DVD is in the $15 range. A trans release, same packaging is $19. Why? Because we can get it."

"Trans porn was initially categorized in the gay section of the porn aisle in the 90s, but it became clear that straight men "kinky straight men" according to trans porn star veteran Wendy Williams are the primary demographic for trans porn." She-male porn, which typically shows men with large breasts and large dicks, is massively popular with men.

The article goes on to explain that on the free porn site PornHub the number one searched category is lesbian. This is lesbian porn directed at men. This is where the cotton ceiling guys are coming from.

I would like to stress that I wish no harm on anyone, regardless of their gender presentation. I do not believe that all MtTs are paraphiliacs. I'm sure they aren't. But I believe that sexual philias are a major component of why some men wish to present as women, and that we - as women - do ourselves no service if we ignore it.

Sorry for long post. I've been thinking about this - and checking it out - for ages.

Oh it's hugely more dangerous because of the permanence of the potential changes...but I think at least some of it comes from a similar place

Yes, I remember that trend well. For a while in 1990s & early 2000s, it seemed bisexuality was not only desirable but expected in women. So many girlfriends kissing girls at parties to attract men's attention & gaslighted into threesomes.

I was caught up in that trend. I was never really attracted to women but felt I should be as everyone else seemed to be. So I experimented..did the whole 'kiss a girl to get attention of boys' thing too. It was rather nice (oddly enough, to this day I still believe women are better kissers than men lol) , but it just didn't do it for me really. I grew out of it all by the time I left school at 16. This movement is entirely different, as some cannot simply 'grow out of it'..especially if their puberty and such has been delayed due to the current trend.

WitchingHour666 the sexual behaviours with late onset trans, like all fetishes, are they likely to be heightened in certain environments?

With arousal much higher for a autogynaephile (is this the correct term?) in spaces that validate the vision of himself as a woman?

cote and then being labelled a prude, frigid or other getting other abuse for not doing it. I was a teen and living alone then and it was assumed so often that the only safe place for me to go clubbing was the local gay club flipping fantastic place and the guys would always wait with me until my taxi arrived to go home. Going to a 'straight' bar. I never felt that cared for. Random sidetrack that.

"rather like the multitude of 'bisexual' females I went to school with who never had a female partner/relationship and are all married to men, twas quite the trend!"

Yes, I remember that trend well. For a while in 1990s & early 2000s, it seemed bisexuality was not only desirable but expected in women. So many girlfriends kissing girls at parties to attract men's attention & gaslighted into threesomes.